Discussion:
The Jewish question
(too old to reply)
Elena Nakashima
2003-11-20 21:12:41 UTC
Permalink
Are Jews good or bad? The fairest answer would be neither; they are
like anyone else, there are good ones and bad ones.
I agree that this is true.
However, ethnic and racial groups seem to possess certain
characteristics, advantages and disadvantages, and other qualities in
quantities uniquely different than among other groups.
For example, the Germanic and Japanese character seems to be driven
toward order and efficiency, cleanliness and precision. This can be
good when they are behaving and dangerous when organized for
aggression.
After all, how dangerous were a bunch of disorganized Italians when
compared to Germans?

It appears the general Jewish trait is cosmopolitanism, and to a
lesser degree, radicalism. Granted, there has been powerful
conservative Jewish impulses but these were confined among Jews and
Jewish issues. In other words, Orthodox Jews stick to their own kind,
their issues are their issues, and they neither care to nor want
interference or influence from or on the world outside.

So, the Jewish elements that do affect gentiles is Jewish
cosmopolitanism and radicalism. An orthodox Jew doesn't try to spread
Orthodox Judaism to other peoples but a radical Jews have tried to
spread communism. Orthodox Jews have little impact on the culture of
goyim but secularized Jews in the arts, media, and politics have left
an indelible mark of their vision and character. Another aspect of
Jewishness is their greater intellectual prowess that leads to rapid
achievements in such fields as academia, business, arts, and politics.

This influence has been both liberating and progressive as well as
destabilizing and alienating, especially for people who who came to
resent the newly arrived mass of immigrants'(say from Russia to
Germany or France)sudden and drastic impact on what the natives
consider their culture and destiny.

Of course this has been complicated by the fact that some Jews were
assimilationists and others became diehard radicals, some became
pro-government while others anti-government, and some became
capitalist tycoons while others became communist revolutionaries.
But, in the significant cases of Jewish capitalism and communism what
one senses is a loyalty that goes beyond national boundaries, with a
little or half-hearted respect for the traditions of the native
gentile populations. As many traditional values are stupid and
oppressive this Jewish influence can be welcomed as modern and
enlightening. But, can people live by ideology alone, whether it be
rooted in money or sense of justice?

I think we associate certain European countries with anti-semitism but
I think every nation and people have a potential for such prejudices,
especially if the nation happens to be homogenouos with a clear sense
of togetherness or a volkish sensibilty. America is ideal for Jews
because while many ethnic groups might distrust or even hate Jews, the
diverse gentile populations don't trust eachother enough to join
forces against the powerful Jewish elite. While the goyim might resent
and envy Jewish achievements and power in United States, it's highly
unlikely that Southern Baptists, Italian American Catholics, Blacks,
Hispanics, and Asians are likely to join forces in a united front
against the Jew. And, why should they if they believe in the American
ideal of meritocracy? If Jews have achieved riches and powers way
beyond their numbers thru hard work and superior intellect, isn't this
the American way. Of course, some don't agree and we have affirmative
action programs which limit, say, NY Jews from entering Ivy League
schools in greater numbers in favor of less intelligent gentiles from
Midwest smalltowns. Of course, some gentiles fear that because Jews
are more intelligent, Jews feel as though they have the right to
sneer, poke fun, trash, and desecrate the cultures of others. The Marx
Brothers movie Duck Soup is a perfect example of this unease gentiles
might feel, that Jews are nihilists who are above conventional
morality, just as Einstein's theory of relativitiy went beyond
conventional Newtonian understanding of the universe. When it's
simply a matter of scientific theory it doesn't matter much but things
of social impact are important in the minds of people. Some would
argue that Jews make fun of themselves as much as any other, and that
other peoples also have a long tradition of comedy and satire; after
all Jonathan Swift wasn't Jewish. But, Jewish humor seems wilder and
more aggressive because it's seen as criticism from an outsider.

Anyway, while I don't think Jews aren't any better or worse than
others, I think their impact on cultures the world over is
significantly DIFFERENT in quality and nuance than the influences of
other cultures. Also, because of the high caliber of Jewish
intellectuality, I think their influences, good and bad, become far
more consequential than that of others. For example, consider the
influence of former Stalinist historian Eric Hobsbawm. If he was just
another lame gentile historian he would have been shuffled aside as
academic hack. But, because of his brilliance, his pro-communist evil
has infiltrated into the unsuspecting minds of many.

I think one of the reasons why there was some clash between Japanese
and Jews in the early 90s was due to their different cultural
approaches and set of values. Japanese by and large are
traditionalist, volkish, and hierarchical whereas Jewish influence and
power in the world are cosmopolitan, supra-national,
anti-traditionalist, and liberal(except in the case of Israel which
can't afford tolerance in the present state of being surrounded by
Arab aggressors). Of course, one can argue that Japan is reasonably a
liberal and modern nation, and that its economy is world-based.
However, if we go beyond business(which in Japan is clannishly
organized and mercantilist anyway) and political expediency(Japanese
dependence on America, for example), Japanese still retain much of
their cultural impulses of the past. Western observers say that
Japanese still have a village mentality, dwell on their uniqueness,
their sense of honor, and define themselves in contrast to other
peoples. They are like Orthodox Jews but then again, Orthodox Jews are
not what defines Jewish power and influence in the world.
In contrast to the Japanese, secular Jews represent transcending
national boundaries, dismantling traditional modes of behavior and
allegiances. To the Japanese, Jews represent a very small percentage
of Americans with undue influence on American politics, culture, and
business. To even conceive of letting themselves be at the mercy of a
minority group upsets, even disgusts, the Japanese. Japanese think of
America as the great Yankee power, the empire of Douglas MacArthur and
John Wayne, now brought low by a cabal of disloyal internationalist
Jews who manipulate the American system for their narrow interests;
they see a once mighty gentile Christian nation led around on a leash
by its clever Jewish master who uses its power to open its national
borders and promote miscegenation to wipe out the racial identity and
pride that once distinguished the nation of Commodore Perry and
Charles Lindbergh. At its height, Japanese even wrote idiotic
best-sellers like IF YOU UNDERSTAND THE JEWS YOU UNDERSTAND THE WORLD,
which was so paranoid and looney that it even claimed Roosevelt was
Jewish. But it was a best-seller and was advertised in Japan's most
respected newspapers, and academics who knew better didn't protest
such slanderous spread of lies.
But, Jews have also seen Japan as a threat in the 80s. They saw the
rise of a homogenous, traditionalist, and fiercely nationalistic
society growing into a major power and what Japan represented was the
power of racial and national unity, of the volkish values, of
discipline and hierarchy, of conservative values; in other words, what
a nation can achieve by sticking together and controlling their own
destiny. Jews fear the Japanese as a bunch of feudalistic and
clannish tribe of modern day samurai who smile at and shakes hands
with the world but have no real value other than group loyality. They
see Japan as a male-dominated society where the population is kept
docile as children thru strick social ordering and thru mindless
soma-like influence of manga, videogames, and pachinko parlors which
keep the minds of people off important issues; in other words, stupid
child-like Japanese women would rather play pachinko all day or dye
their hair pink than march in the streets and demand real justice and
equality. Was Japanbashing in the media merely the manifestation of
American gentile prejudice or was there a Jewish element in the sheer
virulence it reached at its height in late 80s and early 90s?

Anyway, I think all such fears are nonsensical and let's all just get
along together and not nitpick about our differences and focus instead
on our common humanity. God Bless.
Musashi
2003-11-20 21:25:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Elena Nakashima
Are Jews good or bad? The fairest answer would be neither; they are
like anyone else, there are good ones and bad ones.
I agree that this is true.....
Are you a troll?
If so, could you please change your name?

Thank you
Your Pal Brian
2003-11-20 22:23:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Musashi
Are you a troll?
The word is nudnik.

Brian
John Harkness
2003-11-20 22:33:27 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 22:23:01 GMT, Your Pal Brian
Post by Your Pal Brian
Post by Musashi
Are you a troll?
The word is nudnik.
Brian
You misspelled "schmuck"

John Harkness
Kingo Gondo
2003-11-20 23:35:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Harkness
On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 22:23:01 GMT, Your Pal Brian
Post by Your Pal Brian
Post by Musashi
Are you a troll?
The word is nudnik.
Brian
You misspelled "schmuck"
John Harkness
You misspelled "no-life cretin".
Vince
2003-11-21 04:47:38 UTC
Permalink
Re: The Jewish question
Please I've got enough with the REAGAN movie and Ann Coulter on the 35mm NG.

Vince
Take out words goodguy to e-mail
-------------------------------------------------------
Joe Gillis
2003-11-21 01:38:42 UTC
Permalink
Why SHOULDN'T a Jew answer a question with a question??



=================================================

"I don't mind lying, but I HATE inaccuracy." -- Samuel Butler
Stuart Wilkes' mom
2003-11-22 19:39:51 UTC
Permalink
I thought the Jewish question was "why do they eat all that horrible food"?
Post by Musashi
Post by Elena Nakashima
Are Jews good or bad? The fairest answer would be neither; they are
like anyone else, there are good ones and bad ones.
I agree that this is true.....
Are you a troll?
If so, could you please change your name?
Thank you
Elena Nakashima
2003-11-23 01:17:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stuart Wilkes' mom
I thought the Jewish question was "why do they eat all that horrible food"?
But there's a very simple solution to that one; go to a Chinese restaurant.
Post by Stuart Wilkes' mom
Post by Musashi
Post by Elena Nakashima
Are Jews good or bad? The fairest answer would be neither; they are
like anyone else, there are good ones and bad ones.
I agree that this is true.....
Are you a troll?
If so, could you please change your name?
Thank you
Stuart Wilkes' mom
2003-11-23 01:59:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Elena Nakashima
Post by Stuart Wilkes' mom
I thought the Jewish question was "why do they eat all that horrible food"?
But there's a very simple solution to that one; go to a Chinese restaurant.
Do they have super-sized gefelte fish at the drive-through?
Post by Elena Nakashima
Post by Stuart Wilkes' mom
Post by Musashi
Post by Elena Nakashima
Are Jews good or bad? The fairest answer would be neither; they are
like anyone else, there are good ones and bad ones.
I agree that this is true.....
Are you a troll?
If so, could you please change your name?
Thank you
Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
2003-11-24 00:30:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stuart Wilkes' mom
I thought the Jewish question was "why do they eat all that horrible food"?
I may somewhere still have the label from a sandwich label that caused a
laugh from my jewish coworker here at UNC.
"Kosher Ham and Cheese on Jewish Rye"
It also came packaged with a slice of dill pickle.
He wasn't offended, just amused.
--
Rostyk
Stuart Wilkes' mom
2003-11-24 02:20:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
Post by Stuart Wilkes' mom
I thought the Jewish question was "why do they eat all that horrible food"?
I may somewhere still have the label from a sandwich label that caused a
laugh from my jewish coworker here at UNC.
"Kosher Ham and Cheese on Jewish Rye"
It also came packaged with a slice of dill pickle.
He wasn't offended, just amused.
--
Rostyk
Good thing he didn't eat the Kosher ham. He'd be stuck in hell with all the
Catholics that ate meat on Friday.
captain!
2003-11-24 10:13:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
Post by Stuart Wilkes' mom
I thought the Jewish question was "why do they eat all that horrible food"?
I may somewhere still have the label from a sandwich label that caused a
laugh from my jewish coworker here at UNC.
"Kosher Ham and Cheese on Jewish Rye"
It also came packaged with a slice of dill pickle.
He wasn't offended, just amused.
--
Rostyk
lol: jewish rye.
Cindy
2003-11-24 13:37:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
Post by Stuart Wilkes' mom
I thought the Jewish question was "why do they eat all that horrible food"?
I may somewhere still have the label from a sandwich label that caused a
laugh from my jewish coworker here at UNC.
"Kosher Ham
That sounds like pork
Post by Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
and Cheese on
That sounds like a milk product
Post by Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
Jewish Rye"
I think I've heard it somewhere.
Post by Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
It also came packaged with a slice of dill pickle.
ha!
Post by Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
He wasn't offended, just amused.
Did he eat it?
Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
2003-11-25 06:24:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cindy
Post by Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
Post by Stuart Wilkes' mom
I thought the Jewish question was "why do they eat all that horrible food"?
I may somewhere still have the label from a sandwich label that caused
a laugh from my jewish coworker here at UNC.
"Kosher Ham
That sounds like pork
Post by Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
and Cheese on
That sounds like a milk product
Post by Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
Jewish Rye"
I think I've heard it somewhere.
Post by Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
It also came packaged with a slice of dill pickle.
ha!
Post by Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
He wasn't offended, just amused.
Did he eat it?
I don't recall. I know that I did, fairly often.
He prefered sea food subs, with shrimp and crab in yucky mayo,
and chopped lettuce and onions, washed down with a Coke.
Cindy
2003-11-25 12:54:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
Post by Cindy
Did he eat it?
I don't recall. I know that I did, fairly often.
He prefered sea food subs, with shrimp and crab in yucky mayo,
and chopped lettuce and onions, washed down with a Coke.
Shrimp and crab don't sound very kosher either. I feel kinda sorry for
Jewish people that they have to follow such a strict diet rule. I
believe this is one of the reasons that make the Jewish people
outstandingly demanding sometimes. However, once you know that they are
doing it for a religious reason, maybe you want to cooperate with them
and meet their needs. I should say: Jews -- the most misunderstood
people in the world.

The Jewish culture has been very fascinating to me; however, I am
positive that I can not stand obeying the rules and contracts. I should
be glad to be a gentile.
d***@DELETEsocal.rr.com
2003-11-25 16:31:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cindy
Shrimp and crab don't sound very kosher either. I feel kinda sorry for
Jewish people that they have to follow such a strict diet rule.
Jews don't "have to" do anything you don't have to do. Many observant
Jews around the world choose to keep kosher; many other Jews don't.

There's a funny moment in the book "Portnoy's Complaint" when the
mother is horrified to hear that her son has eaten lobster.
Post by Cindy
The Jewish culture has been very fascinating to me; however, I am
positive that I can not stand obeying the rules and contracts. I should
be glad to be a gentile.
They're glad you're a gentile, too.





--
I get tired of either sense or nonsense if I am
kept very continuously to either & like my mind
to undulate between the two as it likes best.

-- Bagehot (1858)
cindys
2003-11-25 23:20:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cindy
Post by Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
Post by Cindy
Did he eat it?
I don't recall. I know that I did, fairly often.
He prefered sea food subs, with shrimp and crab in yucky mayo,
and chopped lettuce and onions, washed down with a Coke.
Shrimp and crab don't sound very kosher either. I feel kinda sorry for
Jewish people that they have to follow such a strict diet rule. I
believe this is one of the reasons that make the Jewish people
outstandingly demanding sometimes. However, once you know that they are
doing it for a religious reason, maybe you want to cooperate with them
and meet their needs. I should say: Jews -- the most misunderstood
people in the world.
The Jewish culture has been very fascinating to me; however, I am
positive that I can not stand obeying the rules and contracts. I should
be glad to be a gentile.
------------
You may find this difficult to believe, but I honestly don't believe we feel
deprived at all. There is no kosher police, and if I were to eat ham or
shrimp or whatever, no one is going to knock down my door and drag me away.
I believe that most Jews who follow the kosher dietary laws do so willingly
and happily because we believe that this is what God wants us to do (follow
the laws of the torah) and that in so doing, it will bring us closer to Him.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Stuart Wilkes' mom
2003-11-25 23:26:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Vince
Post by Cindy
Post by Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
Post by Cindy
Did he eat it?
I don't recall. I know that I did, fairly often.
He prefered sea food subs, with shrimp and crab in yucky mayo,
and chopped lettuce and onions, washed down with a Coke.
Shrimp and crab don't sound very kosher either. I feel kinda sorry for
Jewish people that they have to follow such a strict diet rule. I
believe this is one of the reasons that make the Jewish people
outstandingly demanding sometimes. However, once you know that they are
doing it for a religious reason, maybe you want to cooperate with them
and meet their needs. I should say: Jews -- the most misunderstood
people in the world.
The Jewish culture has been very fascinating to me; however, I am
positive that I can not stand obeying the rules and contracts. I should
be glad to be a gentile.
------------
You may find this difficult to believe, but I honestly don't believe we feel
deprived at all. There is no kosher police, and if I were to eat ham or
shrimp or whatever, no one is going to knock down my door and drag me away.
I believe that most Jews who follow the kosher dietary laws do so willingly
and happily because we believe that this is what God wants us to do (follow
the laws of the torah) and that in so doing, it will bring us closer to Him.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
If you have to not eat ham to be closer to God, I suggest you flush that
stupid religion of yours down the toilet. God don't f*ing care if you eat
ham!
cindys
2003-11-26 01:20:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by cindys
Post by cindys
You may find this difficult to believe, but I honestly don't believe we
feel
Post by cindys
deprived at all. There is no kosher police, and if I were to eat ham or
shrimp or whatever, no one is going to knock down my door and drag me
away.
Post by cindys
I believe that most Jews who follow the kosher dietary laws do so
willingly
Post by cindys
and happily because we believe that this is what God wants us to do
(follow
Post by cindys
the laws of the torah) and that in so doing, it will bring us closer to
Him.
Post by cindys
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
If you have to not eat ham to be closer to God, I suggest you flush that
stupid religion of yours down the toilet. God don't f*ing care if you eat
ham!
---------------
Maybe if you stopped eating ham, you wouldn't have a mouth like a pig.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Stuart Wilkes' mom
2003-11-26 01:38:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Vince
Post by cindys
Post by cindys
You may find this difficult to believe, but I honestly don't believe we
feel
Post by cindys
deprived at all. There is no kosher police, and if I were to eat ham or
shrimp or whatever, no one is going to knock down my door and drag me
away.
Post by cindys
I believe that most Jews who follow the kosher dietary laws do so
willingly
Post by cindys
and happily because we believe that this is what God wants us to do
(follow
Post by cindys
the laws of the torah) and that in so doing, it will bring us closer to
Him.
Post by cindys
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
If you have to not eat ham to be closer to God, I suggest you flush that
stupid religion of yours down the toilet. God don't f*ing care if you eat
ham!
---------------
Maybe if you stopped eating ham, you wouldn't have a mouth like a pig.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
If you have a brain, use it. All religion is festered by ignorance.
yechidah
2003-11-26 02:13:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stuart Wilkes' mom
Post by Vince
Post by cindys
Post by cindys
You may find this difficult to believe, but I honestly don't believe
we
Post by Vince
Post by cindys
feel
Post by cindys
deprived at all. There is no kosher police, and if I were to eat ham
or
Post by Vince
Post by cindys
Post by cindys
shrimp or whatever, no one is going to knock down my door and drag me
away.
Post by cindys
I believe that most Jews who follow the kosher dietary laws do so
willingly
Post by cindys
and happily because we believe that this is what God wants us to do
(follow
Post by cindys
the laws of the torah) and that in so doing, it will bring us closer
to
Post by Vince
Post by cindys
Him.
Post by cindys
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
If you have to not eat ham to be closer to God, I suggest you flush that
stupid religion of yours down the toilet. God don't f*ing care if you
eat
Post by Vince
Post by cindys
ham!
---------------
Maybe if you stopped eating ham, you wouldn't have a mouth like a pig.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
If you have a brain, use it. All religion is festered by ignorance.
Silly man. It's precisely because we have the Laws to protect us and shelter
us from undue psychic and spirirtual harm, that Jewish minds are so
brilliant. When we practice Torah we are protected, enriched and
mproved - body, mind and soul.


YS


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.516 / Virus Database: 313 - Release Date: 9/1/03
Stuart Wilkes' mom
2003-11-26 12:23:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by yechidah
Post by Stuart Wilkes' mom
Post by Vince
Post by cindys
Post by cindys
You may find this difficult to believe, but I honestly don't believe
we
Post by Vince
Post by cindys
feel
Post by cindys
deprived at all. There is no kosher police, and if I were to eat ham
or
Post by Vince
Post by cindys
Post by cindys
shrimp or whatever, no one is going to knock down my door and drag
me
Post by Stuart Wilkes' mom
Post by Vince
Post by cindys
away.
Post by cindys
I believe that most Jews who follow the kosher dietary laws do so
willingly
Post by cindys
and happily because we believe that this is what God wants us to do
(follow
Post by cindys
the laws of the torah) and that in so doing, it will bring us closer
to
Post by Vince
Post by cindys
Him.
Post by cindys
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
If you have to not eat ham to be closer to God, I suggest you flush
that
Post by Stuart Wilkes' mom
Post by Vince
Post by cindys
stupid religion of yours down the toilet. God don't f*ing care if you
eat
Post by Vince
Post by cindys
ham!
---------------
Maybe if you stopped eating ham, you wouldn't have a mouth like a pig.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
If you have a brain, use it. All religion is festered by ignorance.
Silly man. It's precisely because we have the Laws to protect us and shelter
us from undue psychic and spirirtual harm, that Jewish minds are so
brilliant. When we practice Torah we are protected, enriched and
mproved - body, mind and soul.
YS
Why not just take a multi-vitamin?
Post by yechidah
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.516 / Virus Database: 313 - Release Date: 9/1/03
yechidah
2003-11-26 17:41:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Elena Nakashima
Post by yechidah
Post by Stuart Wilkes' mom
Post by Vince
Post by cindys
Post by cindys
You may find this difficult to believe, but I honestly don't
believe
Post by yechidah
Post by Stuart Wilkes' mom
we
Post by Vince
Post by cindys
feel
Post by cindys
deprived at all. There is no kosher police, and if I were to eat
ham
Post by yechidah
Post by Stuart Wilkes' mom
or
Post by Vince
Post by cindys
Post by cindys
shrimp or whatever, no one is going to knock down my door and drag
me
Post by Stuart Wilkes' mom
Post by Vince
Post by cindys
away.
Post by cindys
I believe that most Jews who follow the kosher dietary laws do so
willingly
Post by cindys
and happily because we believe that this is what God wants us to
do
Post by yechidah
Post by Stuart Wilkes' mom
Post by Vince
Post by cindys
(follow
Post by cindys
the laws of the torah) and that in so doing, it will bring us
closer
Post by yechidah
Post by Stuart Wilkes' mom
to
Post by Vince
Post by cindys
Him.
Post by cindys
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
If you have to not eat ham to be closer to God, I suggest you flush
that
Post by Stuart Wilkes' mom
Post by Vince
Post by cindys
stupid religion of yours down the toilet. God don't f*ing care if
you
Post by yechidah
Post by Stuart Wilkes' mom
eat
Post by Vince
Post by cindys
ham!
---------------
Maybe if you stopped eating ham, you wouldn't have a mouth like a pig.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
If you have a brain, use it. All religion is festered by ignorance.
Silly man. It's precisely because we have the Laws to protect us and
shelter
Post by yechidah
us from undue psychic and spirirtual harm, that Jewish minds are so
brilliant. When we practice Torah we are protected, enriched and
mproved - body, mind and soul.
YS
Why not just take a multi-vitamin?
We do - it's called Vitamin T.


YS


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.542 / Virus Database: 336 - Release Date: 11/18/03
v***@oyama.ca
2003-11-26 01:39:49 UTC
Permalink
In article <9dTwb.148246$***@twister.nyroc.rr.com>, cstein1
@rochester.rr.com says...
Post by Vince
Post by cindys
Post by cindys
You may find this difficult to believe, but I honestly don't believe we
feel
Post by cindys
deprived at all. There is no kosher police, and if I were to eat ham or
shrimp or whatever, no one is going to knock down my door and drag me
away.
Post by cindys
I believe that most Jews who follow the kosher dietary laws do so
willingly
Post by cindys
and happily because we believe that this is what God wants us to do
(follow
Post by cindys
the laws of the torah) and that in so doing, it will bring us closer to
Him.
Post by cindys
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
If you have to not eat ham to be closer to God, I suggest you flush that
stupid religion of yours down the toilet. God don't f*ing care if you eat
ham!
---------------
Maybe if you stopped eating ham, you wouldn't have a mouth like a pig.
Best regards,
I doubt a pig would say god is indifferent to whether or not people eat
ham. No doubt, the religion followed by most pigs specifies eating ham
as a mortal sin or equivalent. ;-)

Verno
A stickler for accuracy.
Cindy
2003-11-26 18:49:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stuart Wilkes' mom
If you have to not eat ham to be closer to God, I suggest you flush that
stupid religion of yours down the toilet. God don't f*ing care if you eat
ham!
Even though you are a Christian and believe so, leave the Jewish people
alone! You don't mess with other people's norm.

How about my telling you to stop eating pizza and coke to decrease your
lipocytosis? Overeating and overdrinking are not what God wants from
you because they are abusing your health.
Stuart Wilkes' mom
2003-11-26 19:55:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cindy
Post by Stuart Wilkes' mom
If you have to not eat ham to be closer to God, I suggest you flush that
stupid religion of yours down the toilet. God don't f*ing care if you eat
ham!
Even though you are a Christian and believe so, leave the Jewish people
alone! You don't mess with other people's norm.
How about my telling you to stop eating pizza and coke to decrease your
lipocytosis? Overeating and overdrinking are not what God wants from
you because they are abusing your health.
Eating pizza doesn't make you closer to God either and he really couldn't
care less if it's pepperoni or mushroom.
yechidah
2003-11-26 20:07:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stuart Wilkes' mom
Eating pizza doesn't make you closer to God either and he really couldn't
care less if it's pepperoni or mushroom.
When is the last time you actually bothered yourself to ask Him what He
wants from humanity - period?

YS




---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.542 / Virus Database: 336 - Release Date: 11/18/03
Stephen Cooke
2003-11-26 20:21:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stuart Wilkes' mom
Eating pizza doesn't make you closer to God either and he really couldn't
care less if it's pepperoni or mushroom.
If they're the right kind of mushrooms, it could bring you closer to God.

swac
Squeegieing my third eye.
Cindy
2003-11-26 02:06:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by cindys
You may find this difficult to believe, but I honestly don't believe we feel
deprived at all. There is no kosher police, and if I were to eat ham or
shrimp or whatever, no one is going to knock down my door and drag me away.
Oh, I see.
Post by cindys
I believe that most Jews who follow the kosher dietary laws do so willingly
and happily because we believe that this is what God wants us to do (follow
the laws of the torah) and that in so doing, it will bring us closer to Him.
Best regards,
I respect that. It is good that you have set laws. I found them quite
practical in any era. In my culture (Japanese), all laws have to be
created by people. I don't know what the lawmakers refer to, but it
would be better if they followed something that never changes and covers
extensive area such as child disciplines.
d***@aol.com
2003-11-26 00:06:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cindy
Post by Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
Did he eat it?> >>
I don't recall. I know that I did, fairly often.
He prefered sea food subs, with shrimp and crab in yucky mayo,
and chopped lettuce and onions, washed down with a Coke.>
Shrimp and crab don't sound very kosher either. I feel kinda sorry for
Jewish people that they have to follow such a strict diet rule. I
believe this is one of the reasons that make the Jewish people
outstandingly demanding sometimes. However, once you know that they are
doing it for a religious reason, maybe you want to cooperate with them
and meet their needs. I should say: Jews -- the most misunderstood
people in the world.> The Jewish culture has been very fascinating to me; however, I am > positive that I can not stand obeying the rules and contracts. I should > be glad to be a gentile.>>
Cindy, 75% of the 5.7 billion worth of KOSHER foods sold each year in
the US, is purchased by Gentiles!! Jews (wealthiest ethnic group in
the US) comprise a measly 2% of the American population. Of that tiny
number, the overwhelming majority of Jews are secular. Where does this
zany notion come from that all Jews are required to practice KOSHER!?
Unless one chooses to adhere to a strict KOSHER diet, or one is born
into a religious sect of Judaism (most influential religion in the
world), there is no set law that says one has to do so.
Regardless, KOSHER (cool, clean, fit) is so popular in America,
"Ball Park" (non-Kosher meat manufacturer) now has their own line of
KOSHER franks. I have yet to hear of one knowing individual who hasn't
fallen in love with KOSHER deli!? Not one who hasn't tasted HEBREW
NATIONAL cold cuts!? KOSHER is free of contaminants, impurities &
animal cruelty. It's still the healthiest food on the planet! Do you
think it's just a coincidence that almost every case of foodborne
illness continues to occur in non-KOSHER meats!?
Sorry, but unless one is living out in the Appalachians, KOSHER
cuisine is stinkin' delish!ehehe From BLINTZES to BAGELS, from KNISHES
to KUGEL, from HOT PASTRAMI ON RYE to COW'S TONGUE, from LATKES to
LOX, from MATZOH BALL SOUP that melts in your mouth to GEFILTE FISH
(most types of fish are acceptable by KOSHER law) that puts hair on
your chest, from STUFFED DERMA (KISHKA) to a BIG KOSHER DILL PICKLE,
there's absolutely nothing restrictive about the taste of KOSHER
foods!
In NYC (greatest Jewish city in the world - hub of culture, finance,
fashion, retail, trade, cuisine, music, theatre, media &
communications), we have KOSHER Chinese restaurants! I kid you not!ehe
In the end, moderation is ultimately the key! Pork tastes good, but
it's still one the worst foods that your body can consume!! -D, NYC "I
believe that eating pork makes people stupid!" eh - DAVID STEINBERG
(sweet Jew, comedian/actor/filmmaker)
Stuart Wilkes' mom
2003-11-26 01:38:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@aol.com
Post by Cindy
Post by Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
Did he eat it?> >>
I don't recall. I know that I did, fairly often.
He prefered sea food subs, with shrimp and crab in yucky mayo,
and chopped lettuce and onions, washed down with a Coke.>
Shrimp and crab don't sound very kosher either. I feel kinda sorry for
Jewish people that they have to follow such a strict diet rule. I
believe this is one of the reasons that make the Jewish people
outstandingly demanding sometimes. However, once you know that they are
doing it for a religious reason, maybe you want to cooperate with them
and meet their needs. I should say: Jews -- the most misunderstood
people in the world.> The Jewish culture has been very fascinating to
me; however, I am > positive that I can not stand obeying the rules and
contracts. I should > be glad to be a gentile.>>
Post by d***@aol.com
Cindy, 75% of the 5.7 billion worth of KOSHER foods sold each year in
the US, is purchased by Gentiles!! Jews (wealthiest ethnic group in
the US) comprise a measly 2% of the American population. Of that tiny
number, the overwhelming majority of Jews are secular. Where does this
zany notion come from that all Jews are required to practice KOSHER!?
Unless one chooses to adhere to a strict KOSHER diet, or one is born
into a religious sect of Judaism (most influential religion in the
world), there is no set law that says one has to do so.
Regardless, KOSHER (cool, clean, fit) is so popular in America,
"Ball Park" (non-Kosher meat manufacturer) now has their own line of
KOSHER franks.
Big news except that they've had that product as long as I can remember.

I have yet to hear of one knowing individual who hasn't
Post by d***@aol.com
fallen in love with KOSHER deli!? Not one who hasn't tasted HEBREW
NATIONAL cold cuts!? KOSHER is free of contaminants, impurities &
animal cruelty. It's still the healthiest food on the planet!
That's what they'd like you to believe. Much of it is pure scam and there's
nothing that anyone can do to stop it. FDA has no legal requirements for
claiming a food is kosher. All you have to do is pay some rabbi a few bucks
and voila! it's all of the sudden kosher! Don't be so naive.

Do you
Post by d***@aol.com
think it's just a coincidence that almost every case of foodborne
illness continues to occur in non-KOSHER meats!?
Sorry, but unless one is living out in the Appalachians, KOSHER
cuisine is stinkin' delish!ehehe From BLINTZES to BAGELS, from KNISHES
to KUGEL, from HOT PASTRAMI ON RYE to COW'S TONGUE, from LATKES to
LOX, from MATZOH BALL SOUP that melts in your mouth to GEFILTE FISH
(most types of fish are acceptable by KOSHER law) that puts hair on
your chest,
Maybe Cindy's chest is already hairy enough?

from STUFFED DERMA (KISHKA) to a BIG KOSHER DILL PICKLE,
Post by d***@aol.com
there's absolutely nothing restrictive about the taste of KOSHER
foods!
In NYC (greatest Jewish city in the world - hub of culture, finance,
fashion, retail, trade, cuisine, music, theatre, media &
communications), we have KOSHER Chinese restaurants! I kid you not!ehe
In the end, moderation is ultimately the key! Pork tastes good, but
it's still one the worst foods that your body can consume!! -D, NYC "I
believe that eating pork makes people stupid!" eh - DAVID STEINBERG
(sweet Jew, comedian/actor/filmmaker)
cindys
2003-11-26 05:09:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stuart Wilkes' mom
That's what they'd like you to believe. Much of it is pure scam and there's
nothing that anyone can do to stop it. FDA has no legal requirements for
claiming a food is kosher. All you have to do is pay some rabbi a few bucks
and voila! it's all of the sudden kosher! Don't be so naive.
----------
What an unbelievable liar you are.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Stuart Wilkes' mom
2003-11-26 12:28:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Elena Nakashima
Post by Stuart Wilkes' mom
That's what they'd like you to believe. Much of it is pure scam and
there's
Post by Stuart Wilkes' mom
nothing that anyone can do to stop it. FDA has no legal requirements for
claiming a food is kosher. All you have to do is pay some rabbi a few
bucks
Post by Stuart Wilkes' mom
and voila! it's all of the sudden kosher! Don't be so naive.
----------
What an unbelievable liar you are.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
In Tel Aviv Mc Donalds, you can get kosher bacon and egg Mc Muffins.
Richard Schultz
2003-11-26 14:24:51 UTC
Permalink
In rec.arts.movies.past-films Stuart Wilkes' mom <***@jhgjhgjhg.com> wrote:

: In Tel Aviv Mc Donalds, you can get kosher bacon and egg Mc Muffins.

To the best of my knowledge, no McDonald's in Israel is kosher.

-----
Richard Schultz ***@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"You don't even have a clue about which clue you're missing."
Cindy
2003-11-26 02:13:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@aol.com
In NYC (greatest Jewish city in the world - hub of culture, finance,
I know, I know, been there, done that. My favorite place is the
Japanese restaurant "Sapporo" on 7th and 49th.
Post by d***@aol.com
fashion, retail, trade, cuisine, music, theatre, media &
communications), we have KOSHER Chinese restaurants!
Must be vegetarian...
Post by d***@aol.com
I kid you not!ehe
In the end, moderation is ultimately the key! Pork tastes good,
Holy pork?

but
Post by d***@aol.com
it's still one the worst foods that your body can consume!! -D, NYC "I
believe that eating pork makes people stupid!" eh - DAVID STEINBERG
(sweet Jew, comedian/actor/filmmaker)
But how can you turkey? Such an ugly bird! We don't eat turkey in
Japan. Do you eat turkey?
cindys
2003-11-26 02:33:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cindy
Post by d***@aol.com
In NYC (greatest Jewish city in the world - hub of culture, finance,
I know, I know, been there, done that. My favorite place is the
Japanese restaurant "Sapporo" on 7th and 49th.
Post by d***@aol.com
fashion, retail, trade, cuisine, music, theatre, media &
communications), we have KOSHER Chinese restaurants!
Must be vegetarian...
-------------------
No. The various dishes are prepared with kosher meats under the supervision
of a rabbi. There are also some kosher vegetarian restaurants, but just
because a restaurant is vegetarian does not mean it's kosher. (In order for
a vegetarian restaurant to be kosher, it must follow the same standards as a
non-vegetarian restaurant: Every single product used in the restaurant must
have kosher certification, all of the vegetables have to be inspected for
bugs, the cooking process must be performed at least in part by a Jewish
person, and a rabbi must supervise the whole operation.)
Best regards,
--Cindy S.
Tilly
2003-11-26 06:57:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@aol.com
Cindy, 75% of the 5.7 billion worth of KOSHER foods sold each year in
the US, is purchased by Gentiles!! Jews (wealthiest ethnic group in
the US) comprise a measly 2% of the American population. Of that tiny
number, the overwhelming majority of Jews are secular. Where does this
zany notion come from that all Jews are required to practice KOSHER!?
Unless one chooses to adhere to a strict KOSHER diet, or one is born
into a religious sect of Judaism (most influential religion in the
world), there is no set law that says one has to do so.
Regardless, KOSHER (cool, clean, fit) is so popular in America,
"Ball Park" (non-Kosher meat manufacturer) now has their own line of
KOSHER franks. I have yet to hear of one knowing individual who hasn't
fallen in love with KOSHER deli!? Not one who hasn't tasted HEBREW
NATIONAL cold cuts!? KOSHER is free of contaminants, impurities &
animal cruelty. It's still the healthiest food on the planet! Do you
think it's just a coincidence that almost every case of foodborne
illness continues to occur in non-KOSHER meats!?
Sorry, but unless one is living out in the Appalachians, KOSHER
cuisine is stinkin' delish!ehehe From BLINTZES to BAGELS, from KNISHES
to KUGEL, from HOT PASTRAMI ON RYE to COW'S TONGUE, from LATKES to
LOX, from MATZOH BALL SOUP that melts in your mouth to GEFILTE FISH
(most types of fish are acceptable by KOSHER law) that puts hair on
your chest, from STUFFED DERMA (KISHKA) to a BIG KOSHER DILL PICKLE,
there's absolutely nothing restrictive about the taste of KOSHER
foods!
In NYC (greatest Jewish city in the world - hub of culture, finance,
fashion, retail, trade, cuisine, music, theatre, media &
communications), we have KOSHER Chinese restaurants! I kid you not!ehe
In the end, moderation is ultimately the key! Pork tastes good, but
it's still one the worst foods that your body can consume!! -D, NYC "I
believe that eating pork makes people stupid!" eh - DAVID STEINBERG
(sweet Jew, comedian/actor/filmmaker)
MMMmmmmmm. You are making me hungry.
It really isn't tough eating Kosher, but is much easier is Israel or the US
where it is easier to get than here.

Tilly

--
***@hotmail.com
Tilly
2003-11-26 12:20:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tilly
MMMmmmmmm. You are making me hungry.
It really isn't tough eating Kosher, but is much easier is Israel or
the US where it is easier to get than here.
Tilly
Correction:

It really isn't tough eating Kosher,however it is much easier to keep Kosher
in Israel and the US.Kosher food is harder to get here, but you can get it
if you know where to go.

Tilly

--
***@hotmail.com
Cindy
2003-11-26 13:00:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tilly
Post by Tilly
MMMmmmmmm. You are making me hungry.
It really isn't tough eating Kosher, but is much easier is Israel or
the US where it is easier to get than here.
Tilly
It really isn't tough eating Kosher,however it is much easier to keep Kosher
in Israel and the US.Kosher food is harder to get here, but you can get it
if you know where to go.
According to a Jewish passenger who sat next to me in an airplane, when
the animals are killed for food, it has to be supervised by a Jewish
person. When food is processed, it has to be supervised by a Jewish
person to ensure the food is not touching unclean items. Thus where
Jewish people live, there are Jewish communities.
Tilly
2003-11-26 14:27:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cindy
According to a Jewish passenger who sat next to me in an airplane, when
the animals are killed for food, it has to be supervised by a Jewish
person. When food is processed, it has to be supervised by a Jewish
person to ensure the food is not touching unclean items. Thus where
Jewish people live, there are Jewish communities.
Yes we have it all and a lot comes from Australia, the US and Israel.

Tilly

--
***@hotmail.com
Tilly
2003-11-26 14:46:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tilly
Post by Cindy
According to a Jewish passenger who sat next to me in an airplane, when
the animals are killed for food, it has to be supervised by a Jewish
person. When food is processed, it has to be supervised by a Jewish
person to ensure the food is not touching unclean items. Thus where
Jewish people live, there are Jewish communities.
Yes we have it all and a lot comes from Australia, the US and Israel.
Tilly
We don't have Kosher delis and there is only one Kosher restaurant.

Tilly
--
***@hotmail.com
cindys
2003-11-26 15:29:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cindy
Post by Tilly
Post by Tilly
MMMmmmmmm. You are making me hungry.
It really isn't tough eating Kosher, but is much easier is Israel or
the US where it is easier to get than here.
Tilly
It really isn't tough eating Kosher,however it is much easier to keep Kosher
in Israel and the US.Kosher food is harder to get here, but you can get it
if you know where to go.
According to a Jewish passenger who sat next to me in an airplane, when
the animals are killed for food, it has to be supervised by a Jewish
person. When food is processed, it has to be supervised by a Jewish
person to ensure the food is not touching unclean items. Thus where
Jewish people live, there are Jewish communities.
---------------
This is basically correct. The animal must be slaughtered by a "shochet" (a
person who is specially trained and is often a rabbi) who uses a slaughter
method called "shechita." Without going into a lot of details, the Jewish
method for slaughter involves a single slash cut to the jugular, using a
knife with a smooth blade. The purpose is to cause instantaneous death to
minimize pain to the animal. Then the blood is drained from the animal (as
mandated by the verse in the torah that we are not permitted to eat the
blood of the animal, because its "life" is in its blood). The internal
organs of the animal are inspected by another rabbi to ensure that the
animal was not suffering from a disease process which would render it treif
(non kosher). There are a number of possible things the rabbi could find
during the inspection process which would render the cow unacceptable for
kosher consumption but would still be permitted by the FDA. Animals in this
category are sent to a non-kosher slaughter house and sold for non-kosher.

Next, the meat is sold to a butcher shop (which is also under the
supervision of a rabbi) where it is cut up and is "kashered." This is a
salting and rinsing process to remove more blood. In the past, the meat was
cut up in the butcher ship but the salting and soaking process was typically
performed by the housewife once she got the meat home. I still have a
grooved board that my grandfather made for my grandmother, which she would
lie at an angle on the sink. She would put the salted meat on it and the
blood would run down the grooves into the sink. Nowadays, the butcher
generally does the salting and rinsing right in the shop. Liver is an
exception to this process in that it has so much blood that it is impossible
to remove it all. Therefore, all liver must be eaten broiled (broiling is
another method for removing blood in lieu of salting and rinsing). If a
Jewish person wants to eat fried liver, he must broil the liver first and
then can fry it afterward.

For the record, at no time does the rabbi "bless" any of the meat (or any
other food). This is a common misconception. The rabbi's role is strictly a
supervisory one and his sole function with respect to the kosher food
industry is to ensure that the food is in keeping with the standards of the
Jewish dietary laws. A kosher symbol on a package assures that these
standards have been met.

Well, this was probably more than you wanted to know...but thank you for
your interest. On this group, the vast majority of the posters are
antisemites, so you are like a breath of fresh air.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Cindy
2003-11-26 19:25:52 UTC
Permalink
cindys wrote:

<snip the interesting Jewish tradition>
Post by cindys
For the record, at no time does the rabbi "bless" any of the meat (or any
other food). This is a common misconception. The rabbi's role is strictly a
supervisory one and his sole function with respect to the kosher food
industry is to ensure that the food is in keeping with the standards of the
Jewish dietary laws. A kosher symbol on a package assures that these
standards have been met.
Does the rabbi have to supervise non-Jewish workers?
Post by cindys
Well, this was probably more than you wanted to know...but thank you for
your interest. On this group, the vast majority of the posters are
antisemites, so you are like a breath of fresh air.
I really liked El Al's strict security policy when I had to research for
my speech presentation about the airline safety. In case you visit
Japan, I have absolutely no idea where you can get kosher food, but tofu
is the safest food for the Jewish people. However, the passenger who
sat next to me said that tofu has to be supervised during its make.
They use the bitter (sodium from the ocean) for enzyme, not products
from animal.
cindys
2003-11-26 22:08:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cindy
<snip the interesting Jewish tradition>
Post by cindys
For the record, at no time does the rabbi "bless" any of the meat (or any
other food). This is a common misconception. The rabbi's role is strictly a
supervisory one and his sole function with respect to the kosher food
industry is to ensure that the food is in keeping with the standards of the
Jewish dietary laws. A kosher symbol on a package assures that these
standards have been met.
Does the rabbi have to supervise non-Jewish workers?
Yes. If he is going to certify a certain product as being kosher, he must
supervise the entire operation, Jewish and non-Jewish workers, ingredients,
processing, equipment, etc. If it is a factory (in contrast to a
slaughterhouse), the rabbi is not necessarily present all the time.
Typically, at the beginning of the process, the rabbi conducts a thorough
discussion, investigation, supervision etc with the manufacturers of the
product. (Clearly, this would happen only in a situation where a
manufacturer would like his product to be kosher certified and requests that
the rabbi visit the factory. Obviously, rabbis don't go around
investigating/supervising factories unless they've been invited/requested).
Once the rabbi feels satisfied that all ingredients are kosher and that the
processing does not involve kosher foods coming into contact with non-kosher
foods, etc. the food is certified kosher, and the manufacturer is allowed to
display a kosher symbol on the label. After that, the rabbi conducts
periodic inspections but is typically not present all the time. Usually, he
has a key to the factory so that he can make a surprise inspection if he so
chooses.
Post by Cindy
Post by cindys
Well, this was probably more than you wanted to know...but thank you for
your interest. On this group, the vast majority of the posters are
antisemites, so you are like a breath of fresh air.
I really liked El Al's strict security policy when I had to research for
my speech presentation about the airline safety. In case you visit
Japan, I have absolutely no idea where you can get kosher food, but tofu
is the safest food for the Jewish people. However, the passenger who
sat next to me said that tofu has to be supervised during its make.
Yes, it does have to be supervised, as I have described above.
Post by Cindy
They use the bitter (sodium from the ocean) for enzyme, not products
from animal.
While that may be true, other (non-kosher) products may be processed on the
same equipment at other times or maybe the bitter was stored in a container
that previously held dried shrimp (e.g.). Agar (seaweed) is often
non-kosher because it can contain parts from seahorses that get entangled in
it. Kosher involves the equipment, shipping, storage, and processing as well
as the ingredients. The rabbi checks into all of this before he can give his
certification to a product.

Again, thanks for asking. (BTW, I like your name!)
Best regards,
---Cindy S.

d***@DELETEsocal.rr.com
2003-11-26 16:20:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tilly
Post by d***@aol.com
Sorry, but unless one is living out in the Appalachians, KOSHER
cuisine is stinkin' delish!ehehe From BLINTZES to BAGELS, from KNISHES
to KUGEL, from HOT PASTRAMI ON RYE to COW'S TONGUE, from LATKES to
LOX, from MATZOH BALL SOUP that melts in your mouth to GEFILTE FISH
(most types of fish are acceptable by KOSHER law) that puts hair on
your chest, from STUFFED DERMA (KISHKA) to a BIG KOSHER DILL PICKLE,
there's absolutely nothing restrictive about the taste of KOSHER
foods!
MMMmmmmmm. You are making me hungry.
It really isn't tough eating Kosher, but is much easier is Israel or the US
where it is easier to get than here.
But everything he named isn't necessarily kosher. He's (deliberately
or not) confusing "kosher" with what is generally termed "kosher
style." Blintzes may be kosher at one establishment & not at another,
depending on a number of factors that you have already mentioned. The
restaurant kitchen has to keep pots & pans for kosher cooking, for
example.





--
I get tired of either sense or nonsense if I am
kept very continuously to either & like my mind
to undulate between the two as it likes best.

-- Bagehot (1858)
Patricia Heil
2003-11-20 21:25:25 UTC
Permalink
First, you should read the article in the current Scientific
American about race.

Second this subject has been dealth with before on this newsgroup.
A really intelligent person would check that out and only post
anything new they have. You are simply rehashing things refuted
against trolls before now.

So if you don't want to be identified with trolls, stop posting
such garbage.
Post by Elena Nakashima
Are Jews good or bad? The fairest answer would be neither; they are
like anyone else, there are good ones and bad ones.
I agree that this is true.
Elena Nakashima
2003-11-21 04:29:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Patricia Heil
First, you should read the article in the current Scientific
American about race.
Yes, they want to tell us that Nigerians and Vietnamese are exactly
the same and that differences among races are negligible.

Yeah, how suspenseful to have Mike Tyson fight some 5 ft 3 in guy
named Nguyen.

Political correct science.
Patricia Heil
2003-11-21 13:10:16 UTC
Permalink
Proof you haven't read the article. Go to ebay and buy a brain.
Post by Elena Nakashima
Post by Patricia Heil
First, you should read the article in the current Scientific
American about race.
Yes, they want to tell us that Nigerians and Vietnamese are exactly
the same and that differences among races are negligible.
Yeah, how suspenseful to have Mike Tyson fight some 5 ft 3 in guy
named Nguyen.
Political correct science.
Richard
2003-11-21 04:57:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Patricia Heil
First, you should read the article in the current Scientific
American about race.
Why? Current archeology and anthropology circles are populated with
cowardly, politically-correct hacks who only publish things if they conform
to the "correct" view.
-Rich
madkevin
2003-11-21 17:54:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard
Post by Patricia Heil
First, you should read the article in the current Scientific
American about race.
Why? Current archeology and anthropology circles are populated with
cowardly, politically-correct hacks who only publish things if they conform
to the "correct" view.
-Rich
Or, as it's commonly-spelled, "factual".

Kevin "It Pays To Enrich Your Word Power!" Cogliano
Richard
2003-11-23 00:51:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by madkevin
Post by Richard
Post by Patricia Heil
First, you should read the article in the current Scientific
American about race.
Why? Current archeology and anthropology circles are populated with
cowardly, politically-correct hacks who only publish things if they conform
to the "correct" view.
-Rich
Or, as it's commonly-spelled, "factual".
Kevin "It Pays To Enrich Your Word Power!" Cogliano
You wouldn't say that if you knew anything about the subject.
Or maybe you would, since you are one of the "correct" types
yourself.
-Rich
madkevin
2003-11-23 14:23:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard
Post by madkevin
Or, as it's commonly-spelled, "factual".
Kevin "It Pays To Enrich Your Word Power!" Cogliano
You wouldn't say that if you knew anything about the subject.
Or maybe you would, since you are one of the "correct" types
yourself.
-Rich
Or, as it's commonly-spelled, "intelligent".

Kevin "Put That In Your Funk & Wagnall's" Cogliano
Cadet Grey
2003-11-26 19:31:45 UTC
Permalink
So bringing this discussion back OT for the rec.arts.movies.past-films
group, what films have had significant scenes set in a Jewish deli?

- Grey
Stephen Cooke
2003-11-26 20:23:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cadet Grey
So bringing this discussion back OT for the rec.arts.movies.past-films
group, what films have had significant scenes set in a Jewish deli?
Well, there's Delicatessen...

One of my favourite Montreal haunts, Ben's Delicatessen is a classic deli
that hasn't changed its decor in over 60 years. Because of that it gets
used as a movie location fairly often, in the window there's a photo of
Gerard Depardieu and Catherine Deneuve that was taken there during the
filming of some Quebec/France cross-Atlantic co-production.

As to the film's name, I have no idea.

swac
Cindy
2003-11-20 21:36:34 UTC
Permalink
Elena Nakashima wrote:
<snip>
Post by Elena Nakashima
Anyway, I think all such fears are nonsensical and let's all just get
along together and not nitpick about our differences and focus instead
on our common humanity. God Bless.
Have you ever read the Bible? Do you understand what God means to them?
Do you understand what traditions they keep? Do you know what Moses,
Abraham, King David, and other Prophets meant to them?
d***@DELETEsocal.rr.com
2003-11-20 23:46:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cindy
Do you understand what traditions they keep? Do you know what Moses,
Abraham, King David, and other Prophets meant to them?
Prophet? Eh. Maybe Oberheim.





--
I get tired of either sense or nonsense if I am
kept very continuously to either & like my mind
to undulate between the two as it likes best.

-- Bagehot (1858)
Joseph Hertzlinger
2003-11-21 05:00:20 UTC
Permalink
Would the Jewish question only be answered by a question?
--
http://hertzlinger.blogspot.com
captain!
2003-11-21 08:59:30 UTC
Permalink
well, i would say that a lot of you have a fear of being "controled" by
jews. to me this gives the impression that you suffer from an inferiority
complex. confident people do not fear being controlled by anyone. if , in
fact, they are in positions of "control" in our societies, then they must
indeed be very intelligent people. are you afraid of them?
Post by Elena Nakashima
Are Jews good or bad? The fairest answer would be neither; they are
like anyone else, there are good ones and bad ones.
I agree that this is true.
However, ethnic and racial groups seem to possess certain
characteristics, advantages and disadvantages, and other qualities in
quantities uniquely different than among other groups.
For example, the Germanic and Japanese character seems to be driven
toward order and efficiency, cleanliness and precision. This can be
good when they are behaving and dangerous when organized for
aggression.
After all, how dangerous were a bunch of disorganized Italians when
compared to Germans?
It appears the general Jewish trait is cosmopolitanism, and to a
lesser degree, radicalism. Granted, there has been powerful
conservative Jewish impulses but these were confined among Jews and
Jewish issues. In other words, Orthodox Jews stick to their own kind,
their issues are their issues, and they neither care to nor want
interference or influence from or on the world outside.
...and the article goes on and on.....
Elena Nakashima
2003-11-21 18:50:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by captain!
well, i would say that a lot of you have a fear of being "controled" by
jews. to me this gives the impression that you suffer from an inferiority
complex. confident people do not fear being controlled by anyone. if , in
fact, they are in positions of "control" in our societies, then they must
indeed be very intelligent people. are you afraid of them?
Are Jews to be feared, at least more than others? Some peoples are
probably more fearsome than others.
For example, bad Japanese or Germans will have more dire consequences
on the world than bad Albanians or Belgians. Not only are Japanese and
Germans greater in number and richer, they really know something about
organization, discipline, and unity--which partly account for the
economic success.
Jews also can be more threatening than others. If a figure were to
make anti-Muslim remarks he might be somewhat admonished but say
something anti-semitic and the full force of Jewish rage will descend
and quite likely ruin his career. This is largely because the amount
of power Jews possess in the media and culture which have conditioned
most Americans to cringe at even the mention of the term
'anti-semite'. Arab-American have much to fear from how
Jewish-Americans portray the Arab world in the Newspapers and movies
but not vice versa. New York Times, Wall Street Journal, Hollywood,
TV stations are not Arab-Americans strongholds. So, can one say
Arab-Americans are suffering from an 'inferiority complex'? Or are
they merely realistic. Of course, it can be both; reality can feed
one's sense of inferiority and lead to a certain fatalism which then
becomes self-perpetuating.

And, I suppose Manhattan project would have been less formidable had
the scientists mainly been made up of gentiles of less intellectual
caliber, as in Germany. Imagine if the Manhattan project had been
conducted by mostly Polish-American scientists. Jokes anyone?

If we may formulate a scenario we can deduce general patterns of
Jewish influence; though Jewish impact on every nation has been
different, the basic similarities are noteworthy.

Let's take a nation called A. Let's say it's made of gentiles. It's a
reasonably stable nation, economically well-to-do, and possessed of
people who share pretty much the same tradition and values.
Let's say this nation experiences a signficant influx of Jews and
gives Jews full rights as equal citizens.
What's likely to happen is what has happened in most European nations
and America when society was liberalized, and Jews were given access
to all spheres of life.
Jews will add to the nation by growing the economy(bigger or more
efficient banks, department stores, entertainment industry, etc), will
make significant contributions to the arts and sciences, will gain
prominent positions in the academia, and influence politics
disproportionate to their numbers. This will bring nation A to
prominence in the eyes of the world for whatever reasons--economic,
artistic, scientific. It might win the nation a few Nobel prizes,
produce world renowned pianists and violin players, writers, chess
experts, etc.

However, nation A will also have to accept other realities. The fate
of that nation will be significantly shaped by the Jews. Its sense of
tradition and established values will be loosened, even threatened by
cosmopolitanism, even radicalism, a phenomenon of the intellectual
class of which Jews will become prominent. Traditionalists will feel
threatened and manipulated by an alien presence.
Many will think, why does a small minority have the right to direct
the future of what's mostly a gentile nation? Jews might also
liberalize laws such as immigration and compromise the sovereignty of
national identity and borders. Jewish interests might become as
important to the nation because of Jewish control of media and
positions in government, such as support of Israel, an issue most
gentiles of nation A really don't care about; they might even feel
uneasy that while Jews are dismantling the gentiles' nationalism, Jews
are promoting their own nationalism abroad in the mideast. Also,
Jewish intellectuals, writing influential books, by teaching and
shaping the minds of the future elite of the nation, will have a great
impact on how future leaders of nation A think and feel; to
traditionalists and nationalists, much of these ideas will seem
unwelcome and hostile to their own sense of historical heritage and
cultural identity.

So, there is something to be gained and something to be lost.
Clearly, an influx of Jews into a nation has a different impact than
an influx of Swedens or Ugandans. All groups will produce its number
of scientists, artists, intellectuals, etc. but when we look at Jewish
patterns, the quantity and quality of their influence is different
than those of other groups.

Consider Japanese-Americans and Jewish Americans. Both groups have had
a reasonably long presence in America, coming in substantial numbers
in the early part of 20th century. Both have become among the most
prosperous ethnic groups in America. Yet, Japanese-Americans, largely
because of their cultural values, opted for well-paying but quiet
professions. Their goal has been to blend in, disappear, become
proficient in the technical sense. They like part of the whole, to
submit to already existing social hierarchies and patterns.
However, Jews have always been more daring, loud, and brash. They
created new domains in all spheres in America, sometimes at the price
of destroying the old.
Where is the Japanese-American Abbie Hoffman, Norman Mailer, Alan
Dershawitz, Bob Dylan, or Allen Klein?
Japanese-Americans have become a part of the larger society but the
Jews significantly altered it.

Is this something to fear or embrace? It depends on one's vision of
society. If the gentile majority of nation A wants to be poorer and
less notable in world or cultural affairs but want the reins of power
firmly in gentile hands, then it's not in their interest to let Jews
into the country.
However, if nation A wants to become richer at the price of losing
some or much of its native cultural identity, then Jews would be most
welcome.
On a pound-for-pound basis, no ethnic minority has tended to change
the culture and economy of the host nation as drastically as the Jews.
How good or bad this is depends on one's vision of society.
yechidah
2003-11-21 19:48:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Elena Nakashima
Are Jews to be feared, at least more than others?
Do not fear the Jewish people, rather fear the wrath of G-d.


YS





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Vince
2003-11-21 23:06:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by yechidah
Do not fear the Jewish people, rather fear the wrath of G-d.
What is the purpose of putting G-d? I had this same thing with Jewish clients
when we used to have the typing service.

Vince
Take out words goodguy to e-mail
-------------------------------------------------------
Lincoln Spector
2003-11-21 23:17:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Vince
Post by yechidah
Do not fear the Jewish people, rather fear the wrath of G-d.
What is the purpose of putting G-d? I had this same thing with Jewish clients
when we used to have the typing service.
It's against the Jewish religion to say G-d's name, or to write the name on
anything that is likely to be thrown away or destroyed.

It's true that that certain, three-letter English word is not G-d's name,
but some of us prefer to treat that word with the same respect. I,
personally, go off and on about that.

Lincoln
Vince
2003-11-22 01:57:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lincoln Spector
It's against the Jewish religion to say G-d's name, or to write the name on
anything that is likely to be thrown away or destroyed.
It's true that that certain, three-letter English word is not G-d's name,
but some of us prefer to treat that word with the same respect. I,
personally, go off and on about that.
I see.

Vince
Take out words goodguy to e-mail
-------------------------------------------------------
d***@DELETEsocal.rr.com
2003-11-22 01:40:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Vince
Post by yechidah
Do not fear the Jewish people, rather fear the wrath of G-d.
What is the purpose of putting G-d? I had this same thing with Jewish clients
when we used to have the typing service.
Observant Jews designate the name of God on paper in abbreviated form
("G-d" in this case). Judaism prohibits erasing any of the names for
God.





--
I get tired of either sense or nonsense if I am
kept very continuously to either & like my mind
to undulate between the two as it likes best.

-- Bagehot (1858)
Vince
2003-11-22 04:17:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@DELETEsocal.rr.com
Observant Jews designate the name of God on paper in abbreviated form
("G-d" in this case). Judaism prohibits erasing any of the names for
God.
That different than what the other poster said.

All in all I think its a little silly.

Vince
Take out words goodguy to e-mail
-------------------------------------------------------
Elena Nakashima
2003-11-22 00:16:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by yechidah
Post by Elena Nakashima
Are Jews to be feared, at least more than others?
Do not fear the Jewish people, rather fear the wrath of G-d.
Aren't they the same thing?
Sheldon Liberman
2003-11-24 04:23:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Elena Nakashima
Post by yechidah
Post by Elena Nakashima
Are Jews to be feared, at least more than others?
Do not fear the Jewish people, rather fear the wrath of G-d.
Aren't they the same thing?
No. Read the Bible.
Cindy
2003-11-22 00:45:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Elena Nakashima
Are Jews to be feared, at least more than others? Some peoples are
probably more fearsome than others.
I have talked to quite many Jewish people. One of them gave me some
comment of Jewish people himself. He said, "Jews are nice people but
extremely opinionated." That's how he described his people -- I am not
sure which group, though.

These are the impressions I received from the interactions with them.
Since they are very religious, law, and faith oriented, they need to be
accommodated with a lot of things that non-Jews don't think important.
However, if I was able to meet their needs, they were very happy such
as looking after their Holy Scripture while they go to restroom, kosher
food, and so on.

I don't know what you are saying by "to be feared", but I bet you will
have to fear them when you come to a persuasive argument, business, or
keeping a promise. I suggest you increase your byte size in your
cerebral cortex before you associate with them.
Phan Kane
2003-11-22 02:49:55 UTC
Permalink
Jews are smart but seem not to be wise..there are many rich, cunning people
and they are still respected and loved by the average joe. I have heard
many, many negative comments from many different people with different
backgrounds...
Post by Cindy
Post by Elena Nakashima
Are Jews to be feared, at least more than others? Some peoples are
probably more fearsome than others.
I have talked to quite many Jewish people. One of them gave me some
comment of Jewish people himself. He said, "Jews are nice people but
extremely opinionated." That's how he described his people -- I am not
sure which group, though.
These are the impressions I received from the interactions with them.
Since they are very religious, law, and faith oriented, they need to be
accommodated with a lot of things that non-Jews don't think important.
However, if I was able to meet their needs, they were very happy such
as looking after their Holy Scripture while they go to restroom, kosher
food, and so on.
I don't know what you are saying by "to be feared", but I bet you will
have to fear them when you come to a persuasive argument, business, or
keeping a promise. I suggest you increase your byte size in your
cerebral cortex before you associate with them.
Cindy
2003-11-22 14:30:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Phan Kane
Jews are smart but seem not to be wise..there are many rich, cunning people
and they are still respected and loved by the average joe. I have heard
many, many negative comments from many different people with different
backgrounds...
I bet they are stubborn when they come to rule, policy, religion, and so
on. Sometimes, their stubbornness may not seem wise to you. You think
they are rich? They are rich because they can manage money better than
you, can't they? They have to manage money wisely; do you know how much
they have to donate their income to synagogue? You hear their negative
comments because they don't bend their policy and compromise for you.
It's too obvious that you envy and hate the people who are successful.
Phan Kane
2003-11-22 17:03:55 UTC
Permalink
there are many rich, cunning people
Post by Cindy
and they are still respected and loved by the average joe..
Stop cheap personal attack will you!! they have been so cunning, selfish and
stupid that their GOD has PUNISHED them again and again.
The assumtion that people dislike you because you are smart and cunning and
rich is a very dump attitude to have. I certainly despise greedy and selfish
mammals.
Post by Cindy
Jews are smart but seem not to be wise..there are many rich, cunning people
and they are still respected and loved by the average joe. I have heard
many, many negative comments from many different people with different
backgrounds...
I bet they are stubborn when they come to rule, policy, religion, and so
on. Sometimes, their stubbornness may not seem wise to you. You think
they are rich? They are rich because they can manage money better than
you, can't they? They have to manage money wisely; do you know how much
they have to donate their income to synagogue? You hear their negative
comments because they don't bend their policy and compromise for you.
It's too obvious that you envy and hate the people who are successful.
Cindy
2003-11-22 18:44:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Phan Kane
there are many rich, cunning people
Post by Cindy
and they are still respected and loved by the average joe..
Stop cheap personal attack will you!! they have been so cunning, selfish and
stupid that their GOD has PUNISHED them again and again.
The assumtion that people dislike you because you are smart and cunning and
rich is a very dump attitude to have. I certainly despise greedy and selfish
mammals.
Are you responding to my post? And do you think I am a Jewish person?
That's absolutely hilarious; I got to tell my friends. Also, since you
despise greedy and selfish mammals, you despise yourself. What a pity!
Post by Phan Kane
Post by Cindy
Jews are smart but seem not to be wise..there are many rich, cunning
people
Post by Cindy
and they are still respected and loved by the average joe. I have heard
many, many negative comments from many different people with different
backgrounds...
I bet they are stubborn when they come to rule, policy, religion, and so
on. Sometimes, their stubbornness may not seem wise to you. You think
they are rich? They are rich because they can manage money better than
you, can't they? They have to manage money wisely; do you know how much
they have to donate their income to synagogue? You hear their negative
comments because they don't bend their policy and compromise for you.
It's too obvious that you envy and hate the people who are successful.
d***@DELETEsocal.rr.com
2003-11-22 17:30:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cindy
I bet they are stubborn when they come to rule, policy, religion, and so
on. Sometimes, their stubbornness may not seem wise to you. You think
they are rich? They are rich because they can manage money better than
you, can't they? They have to manage money wisely; do you know how much
they have to donate their income to synagogue?
None of it, actually. Funding the places of worship is strictly
voluntary, aside from inexpensive annual membership fees.





--
I get tired of either sense or nonsense if I am
kept very continuously to either & like my mind
to undulate between the two as it likes best.

-- Bagehot (1858)
Elena Nakashima
2003-11-22 18:46:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cindy
Post by Phan Kane
Jews are smart but seem not to be wise..there are many rich, cunning people
and they are still respected and loved by the average joe. I have heard
many, many negative comments from many different people with different
backgrounds...
I bet they are stubborn when they come to rule, policy, religion, and so
on. Sometimes, their stubbornness may not seem wise to you. You think
they are rich? They are rich because they can manage money better than
you, can't they? They have to manage money wisely; do you know how much
they have to donate their income to synagogue? You hear their negative
comments because they don't bend their policy and compromise for you.
It's too obvious that you envy and hate the people who are successful.
I think the stereotype that Jews manage their money more carefully
applies generally to the older generation. The Jewish kids I grew up
with in the 80s were like every other American. Consumers.
Cindy
2003-11-22 21:15:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Elena Nakashima
I think the stereotype that Jews manage their money more carefully
applies generally to the older generation. The Jewish kids I grew up
with in the 80s were like every other American. Consumers.
Now we are getting somewhere since you disclosed your experience. Since
I am a flight attendant, all the Jewish people I met were my passengers.
You grew up the Jewish kids, and I took care of the Jewish passengers;
therefore, it is obvious that we have totally different impressions. So
how can we find our frame of reference? It seems that the impression
you have is rather on the negative side. You say their good money
managing skill is a stereotype; however, the stereotype isn't really
wrong, is it? Besides the Jewish friends of yours being consumers, what
else do I need to know?
Elena Nakashima
2003-11-22 18:44:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cindy
Post by Elena Nakashima
Are Jews to be feared, at least more than others? Some peoples are
probably more fearsome than others.
I have talked to quite many Jewish people. One of them gave me some
comment of Jewish people himself. He said, "Jews are nice people but
extremely opinionated." That's how he described his people -- I am not
sure which group, though.
These are the impressions I received from the interactions with them.
Since they are very religious, law, and faith oriented, they need to be
accommodated with a lot of things that non-Jews don't think important.
However, if I was able to meet their needs, they were very happy such
as looking after their Holy Scripture while they go to restroom, kosher
food, and so on.
I don't know what you are saying by "to be feared", but I bet you will
have to fear them when you come to a persuasive argument, business, or
keeping a promise. I suggest you increase your byte size in your
cerebral cortex before you associate with them.
I think whether a people are feared or not depends on one's own
interest. I think a gentile living in a homogenous traditionalist
society should fear the influx or the influence of Jews if he wants to
preserve his sense of cultural stability. Similarly, Jews have feared
the traditionalist and nationalist sentiments of their host countries,
which often led to distrust and persecution of Jews. Jews, unlike
some minorities, don't just assimilate into society but change it in
drastic ways, much of it in the form of healthy progress, in other
cases with radical agendas that can cause much harm. So whether a
group poses a threat to your vision of society depends on what you
want.

For example, is Hollywood a good thing or bad thing? It has
entertained much of the world but many have also felt its corrupting
and/or neo-imperialist influences.
Cindy
2003-11-22 21:25:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Elena Nakashima
Post by Cindy
Post by Elena Nakashima
Are Jews to be feared, at least more than others? Some peoples are
probably more fearsome than others.
I have talked to quite many Jewish people. One of them gave me some
comment of Jewish people himself. He said, "Jews are nice people but
extremely opinionated." That's how he described his people -- I am not
sure which group, though.
These are the impressions I received from the interactions with them.
Since they are very religious, law, and faith oriented, they need to be
accommodated with a lot of things that non-Jews don't think important.
However, if I was able to meet their needs, they were very happy such
as looking after their Holy Scripture while they go to restroom, kosher
food, and so on.
I don't know what you are saying by "to be feared", but I bet you will
have to fear them when you come to a persuasive argument, business, or
keeping a promise. I suggest you increase your byte size in your
cerebral cortex before you associate with them.
I think whether a people are feared or not depends on one's own
interest.
Well, since you have your own view already set, I don't need to put my
two cents in.
Post by Elena Nakashima
I think a gentile living in a homogenous traditionalist
society should fear the influx or the influence of Jews if he wants to
preserve his sense of cultural stability. Similarly, Jews have feared
the traditionalist and nationalist sentiments of their host countries,
which often led to distrust and persecution of Jews. Jews, unlike
some minorities, don't just assimilate into society but change it in
drastic ways, much of it in the form of healthy progress, in other
cases with radical agendas that can cause much harm. So whether a
group poses a threat to your vision of society depends on what you
want.
Not only the Jewish culture but all cultures must be respected in the
same degree, which is probably not very easy.
Post by Elena Nakashima
For example, is Hollywood a good thing or bad thing? It has
entertained much of the world but many have also felt its corrupting
and/or neo-imperialist influences.
The pros and cons? I don't know. I don't watch TV but just a few
movies per month. Therefore, I have no interest in Hollywood.
v***@oyama.ca
2003-11-23 01:24:10 UTC
Permalink
In article <uvQvb.210495$***@attbi_s51>, ***@attb.com
says...
Post by Cindy
Not only the Jewish culture but all cultures must be respected in the
same degree, which is probably not very easy.
How about a culture in which 50% of the people are second class
citizens, denied basic rights which the other 50% are given, and
considered "property". Do you think it "must be respected"?

Verno
Cindy
2003-11-23 01:51:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by v***@oyama.ca
says...
Post by Cindy
Not only the Jewish culture but all cultures must be respected in the
same degree, which is probably not very easy.
How about a culture in which 50% of the people are second class
citizens, denied basic rights which the other 50% are given, and
considered "property". Do you think it "must be respected"?
I really don't like "How about" questions because you are actually
testing my value and moral concept.


In order to answer your question, I got to visit such country and see
the culture myself and see if I can agree with your perception before I
comment anything. Where is it?
yechidah
2003-11-23 02:33:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cindy
I really don't like "How about" questions because you are actually
testing my value and moral concept.
Otherwise known as the core of your truth, lol. How DARE anyone ask you to
operate from that place.


YS


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Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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Cindy
2003-11-23 16:45:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by yechidah
Post by Cindy
I really don't like "How about" questions because you are actually
testing my value and moral concept.
Otherwise known as the core of your truth, lol. How DARE anyone ask you to
operate from that place.
Mostly, it is a testing purpose to find inconsistency, hypocrisy,
racism, sexism, and any sort of negative things so that he can bash on
them. As long as you are talking to a human, there is always a flaw.
That's natural. But some culture like the U.S.A. won't let you get away
with it. They have been so sensitively taught about "equality", they
are always ambushing for controversial cues. When someone used such
word without intending any meaning of discrimination or racism, they got
to go after him and create the witch court. I guess American people
must be more careful about that!
yechidah
2003-11-23 17:03:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cindy
Post by yechidah
Post by Cindy
I really don't like "How about" questions because you are actually
testing my value and moral concept.
Otherwise known as the core of your truth, lol. How DARE anyone ask you to
operate from that place.
Mostly, it is a testing purpose to find inconsistency, hypocrisy,
racism, sexism, and any sort of negative things so that he can bash on
them. As long as you are talking to a human, there is always a flaw.
That's natural. But some culture like the U.S.A. won't let you get away
with it. They have been so sensitively taught about "equality", they
are always ambushing for controversial cues. When someone used such
word without intending any meaning of discrimination or racism, they got
to go after him and create the witch court. I guess American people
must be more careful about that!
The simple truth has to come out, one way or the other. Would you rather it
be pulled from you in pain or it be offered with love? Simple. Your soul is
a vessel to contain this Truth. Whether you will be using it as such or for
protection of the ego/self is a matter of your own free will.

YS
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Cindy
2003-11-23 17:33:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by yechidah
The simple truth has to come out, one way or the other. Would you rather it
be pulled from you in pain or it be offered with love?
This is my simple truth -- I want my needs met. I am sure everybody
feels the same way.
Post by yechidah
Simple. Your soul is
a vessel to contain this Truth. Whether you will be using it as such or for
protection of the ego/self is a matter of your own free will.
Guess what. I will have to do my speech presentation on the 9th of
December. My topic is "euthanasia". This has be a controversial
persuasive speech so that I have to persuade the audience that
"euthanasia" must be approved by law. I have been researching all kinds
of publications, but the more I research it, the more ambiguous about
the idea. For example, if a patient had an excruciating pain from such
as cancer, don't worry, there are drugs and hospice service for him so
that euthanasia is not necessary. Another example, the life-sustaing
device is a wonderful invention, but do you really think it is helping
the patients and their family? What do you think the brain dead,
vegetable patient lived for 200 years after all his family members died
out. Who takes care of him? Can the country take care of his hospital
bill and so on?
yechidah
2003-11-23 17:50:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cindy
Post by yechidah
The simple truth has to come out, one way or the other. Would you rather it
be pulled from you in pain or it be offered with love?
This is my simple truth -- I want my needs met. I am sure everybody
feels the same way.
Every need you have is being met by the Creator. Time to recognize this as
fact.
Post by Cindy
Post by yechidah
Simple. Your soul is
a vessel to contain this Truth. Whether you will be using it as such or for
protection of the ego/self is a matter of your own free will.
Guess what. I will have to do my speech presentation on the 9th of
December. My topic is "euthanasia". This has be a controversial
persuasive speech so that I have to persuade the audience that
"euthanasia" must be approved by law. I have been researching all kinds
of publications, but the more I research it, the more ambiguous about
the idea. For example, if a patient had an excruciating pain from such
as cancer, don't worry, there are drugs and hospice service for him so
that euthanasia is not necessary. Another example, the life-sustaing
device is a wonderful invention, but do you really think it is helping
the patients and their family? What do you think the brain dead,
vegetable patient lived for 200 years after all his family members died
out. Who takes care of him? Can the country take care of his hospital
bill and so on?
All of these issues are meaningless in face of what is before us on a global
scale.

Read, understand, know why learning Kabbalah - the science of the 21st
century - is so vitally crucial to our continued existance and spiritual
evolution. You will then begin to understand how to implement lasting
solutions to what has been so miserably failing till now:

http://www.kabbalah.info


Good wishes,
Yechidah
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Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
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Cindy
2003-11-23 18:05:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by yechidah
Read, understand, know why learning Kabbalah - the science of the 21st
century - is so vitally crucial to our continued existance and spiritual
evolution. You will then begin to understand how to implement lasting
http://www.kabbalah.info
Good wishes,
Yechidah
So you are a kabbalah missionary? It's nice to know that, but I am
sorry; no thank you.
yechidah
2003-11-23 19:25:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cindy
Post by yechidah
Read, understand, know why learning Kabbalah - the science of the 21st
century - is so vitally crucial to our continued existance and spiritual
evolution. You will then begin to understand how to implement lasting
http://www.kabbalah.info
Good wishes,
Yechidah
So you are a kabbalah missionary? It's nice to know that, but I am
sorry; no thank you
Eh. You had your walls up even before *shalom*. All you are is hiding your
head in the sand. How much oxygen you think you've got there? Hmm?


YS
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Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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v***@oyama.ca
2003-11-23 05:51:52 UTC
Permalink
In article <3pUvb.206841$***@attbi_s54>, ***@attb.com
says...
Post by Cindy
Post by v***@oyama.ca
says...
Post by Cindy
Not only the Jewish culture but all cultures must be respected in the
same degree, which is probably not very easy.
How about a culture in which 50% of the people are second class
citizens, denied basic rights which the other 50% are given, and
considered "property". Do you think it "must be respected"?
I really don't like "How about" questions because you are actually
testing my value and moral concept.
When you state that all cultures must be respected, you are espousing
your values and moral concept. Are you unable to explain your values?
Post by Cindy
In order to answer your question, I got to visit such country and see
the culture myself and see if I can agree with your perception before I
comment anything. Where is it?
In other words, you don't want to answer because you think it's
hypothetical? Isn't it useful to explore hypothetical questions to test
values and ethics?

There are several countries that approximate my statement above. Most
of them are Muslim countries. Google for "women denied basic rights"
and see what comes up. Very enlightening.

Verno
Cindy
2003-11-23 16:28:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by v***@oyama.ca
When you state that all cultures must be respected, you are espousing
your values and moral concept. Are you unable to explain your values?
I don't mind doing that, but probably you won't get this analogy.
Picture an iceberg floating in an ocean. The tip of the iceberg is what
you see of the person, color of his skin, artifact, behavior, and
language. The iceberg under the water is his culture, tradition,
religion, family, beliefs, culture norm, and so on. The iceberg under
the bottom is basic human being. This is applied to everybody.
Post by v***@oyama.ca
Post by Cindy
In order to answer your question, I got to visit such country and see
the culture myself and see if I can agree with your perception before I
comment anything. Where is it?
In other words, you don't want to answer because you think it's
hypothetical? Isn't it useful to explore hypothetical questions to test
values and ethics?
I can only talk from my experience. I don't want to make an assumption;
I don't want to generalize; I don't want to push my ethnocentrism. The
only thing I can do is to talk from my experience. I am aware that you
will never agree with my comments from my experience because my
perceptions are filtered with my judgments, which is consisted of my
prejudice, past experience, moral, ethics, my parents, schools, my
culture, and so on. If you respect the difference between your views
and my comments, it's worthwhile having the discussions; however, if you
try to change my idea forcefully, I got to excuse myself.
Post by v***@oyama.ca
There are several countries that approximate my statement above. Most
of them are Muslim countries. Google for "women denied basic rights"
and see what comes up. Very enlightening.
That's why I have to visit those countries. All the perceptions I got
from media and news publications are that I saw a man beating a woman
with a stick. I thought "How terrible!". I bet you want to go there
and separate the two and save the woman from the violent man. And
probably, you want to save all the women of the country and let them go
to college and let them have the same rights as the men do. I do really
think so. However, before I come to any decision, I got to talk to those
women. After I visit and talk to the women and see how they really feel
about themselves, I will tell you my view, verno. Respecting "rights"
is very important, but we can not ignore the person's cultural norm and
traditions. Therefore, basically, yes, those women's rights must be
respected only if those women have agreed with it.
v***@oyama.ca
2003-11-23 17:58:38 UTC
Permalink
In article <0f5wb.216425$***@attbi_s51>, ***@attb.com
says...
Post by Cindy
Post by v***@oyama.ca
When you state that all cultures must be respected, you are espousing
your values and moral concept. Are you unable to explain your values?
I don't mind doing that, but probably you won't get this analogy.
Picture an iceberg floating in an ocean. The tip of the iceberg is what
you see of the person, color of his skin, artifact, behavior, and
language. The iceberg under the water is his culture, tradition,
religion, family, beliefs, culture norm, and so on. The iceberg under
the bottom is basic human being. This is applied to everybody.
Fine, but you're ducking the issue.
Post by Cindy
Post by v***@oyama.ca
Post by Cindy
In order to answer your question, I got to visit such country and see
the culture myself and see if I can agree with your perception before I
comment anything. Where is it?
In other words, you don't want to answer because you think it's
hypothetical? Isn't it useful to explore hypothetical questions to test
values and ethics?
I can only talk from my experience. I don't want to make an assumption;
I don't want to generalize; I don't want to push my ethnocentrism. The
only thing I can do is to talk from my experience. I am aware that you
will never agree with my comments from my experience because my
perceptions are filtered with my judgments, which is consisted of my
prejudice, past experience, moral, ethics, my parents, schools, my
culture, and so on. If you respect the difference between your views
and my comments, it's worthwhile having the discussions; however, if you
try to change my idea forcefully, I got to excuse myself.
I can't recall trying to change your idea forcefully. I can only recall
asking you to explain your statement that "all cultures must be
respected". If you can't justify a belief, why should you continue to
hold it?
Post by Cindy
Post by v***@oyama.ca
There are several countries that approximate my statement above. Most
of them are Muslim countries. Google for "women denied basic rights"
and see what comes up. Very enlightening.
That's why I have to visit those countries. All the perceptions I got
from media and news publications are that I saw a man beating a woman
with a stick. I thought "How terrible!". I bet you want to go there
and separate the two and save the woman from the violent man. And
probably, you want to save all the women of the country and let them go
to college and let them have the same rights as the men do. I do really
think so. However, before I come to any decision, I got to talk to those
women. After I visit and talk to the women and see how they really feel
about themselves, I will tell you my view, verno. Respecting "rights"
is very important, but we can not ignore the person's cultural norm and
traditions. Therefore, basically, yes, those women's rights must be
respected only if those women have agreed with it.
IOW, it's ok to brutalize people who agree with it?

Verno
Cindy
2003-11-23 20:11:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by v***@oyama.ca
IOW, it's ok to brutalize people who agree with it?
It doesn't sound very nice, so I would say "no". But, what do I know?
I know nothing about the people. I've met a guy who described his ideal
girlfriend. He wants a girlfriend who he can fight with. His
definition of fight is to physically beat up each other. His affection
is expressed by "beating up" his girlfriend. When he stops beating her,
that's the end of relationship. I have no comment on his idea. I hope
he will find the girl who satisfies his needs.

See; I can give you general idea, but if you want to dig it deeper and
try to apply to a certain specific group or culture, the general idea
may not work; it may become an obnoxious ethnocentrism which people will
say "no thank you". This is what many American citizens have been doing
to other cultures and countries.

So I will ask you reciprocally,
Post by v***@oyama.ca
it's ok to brutalize people who agree with it?
What is your view?
v***@oyama.ca
2003-11-23 22:41:17 UTC
Permalink
In article <uv8wb.216472$***@attbi_s52>, ***@attb.com
says...
Post by Cindy
Post by v***@oyama.ca
IOW, it's ok to brutalize people who agree with it?
It doesn't sound very nice, so I would say "no". But, what do I know?
I know nothing about the people. I've met a guy who described his ideal
girlfriend. He wants a girlfriend who he can fight with. His
definition of fight is to physically beat up each other. His affection
is expressed by "beating up" his girlfriend. When he stops beating her,
that's the end of relationship. I have no comment on his idea. I hope
he will find the girl who satisfies his needs.
I hope he won't for reasons explained below.
Post by Cindy
See; I can give you general idea, but if you want to dig it deeper and
try to apply to a certain specific group or culture, the general idea
may not work; it may become an obnoxious ethnocentrism which people will
say "no thank you". This is what many American citizens have been doing
to other cultures and countries.
This is beginning to sound a little like moral relativism--"you decide
what's right for you, and I'll decide what's right for me". Moral
relativism asserts that there is no absolute right or wrong, only
cultural definitions of right and wrong." This is a fundamentally
flawed view, and I have another hypothetical question for you in case
you disagree that it is flawed.

Do you think it is better to hug a child than to beat it? If you
answered "yes", you don't really believe in moral relativism.
Post by Cindy
So I will ask you reciprocally,
Post by v***@oyama.ca
it's ok to brutalize people who agree with it?
What is your view?
Rule no. 1. Don't talk about Fight Club. ;-)

Well-adjusted people do not seek beatings. There are undoubtedly people
with psychological problems who seek physical pain, but it's not
healthy. It doesn't help them with their problems, and it may well do
serious damage. And it hurts others. Tolerating beating between
consenting adults erodes society's revulsion against beating, and
creates more people who feel it is OK to beat others.

At least that's my view. :-)

Verno
Cindy
2003-11-23 23:26:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by v***@oyama.ca
Post by Cindy
Post by v***@oyama.ca
it's ok to brutalize people who agree with it?
What is your view?
Rule no. 1. Don't talk about Fight Club. ;-)
You are very young, aren't you?
Post by v***@oyama.ca
Well-adjusted people do not seek beatings. There are undoubtedly people
with psychological problems who seek physical pain, but it's not
healthy. It doesn't help them with their problems, and it may well do
serious damage. And it hurts others. Tolerating beating between
consenting adults erodes society's revulsion against beating, and
creates more people who feel it is OK to beat others.
At least that's my view. :-)
That's absolutely noble! I bet you are a good person and good husband.

Now, I have to ask you some questions. How old are you? Where are you
from? Do you go to college? You don't sound like married, but are you
married? If you are married, how long have you been married? Have you
divorced before?

Do you remember when you were about 8 to 10 years old? When very close
female friends of those ages meet, they hug and hold hands and so on to
show affection to each other. On the other hand, boys of those ages,
they hit each other. Hitting each other means affection to them. Have
you ever had that experience? My psychology professor says it's normal
for young boys. Do you call them psychologically abnormal? Or it is
normal for them to hit each other because they are not well adjusted people?

I don't know how young you are and what sort of a happy family you came
from, but I am not comfortable discussing the subject with you because
we have only a slight overlap of our frames of references. I have never
gone through a divorce yet, but do you know how stressful a divorce is?
Have you had an experience such as your employer just closed the local
office you had worked for 30 years because he was against to the pay
raise. Your retirement disappeared (Enron type incident). I know one
husband dumped his wife in order to marry another woman. Your wife is
having an affair with some other guys. You divorced your husband
successfully, but you and your child have a terrible financial crisis.
Your child is getting speeding tickets every month. Your child has
totaled three cars. Your child has been imprisoned for murder or drugs.

Have you had any of those experiences? And how would you like to listen
to those experiences everyday? What would you do when you hear those
experiences?
v***@oyama.ca
2003-11-24 06:53:18 UTC
Permalink
In article <%mbwb.89266$***@attbi_s02>, ***@attb.com
says...
Post by Cindy
Post by v***@oyama.ca
Post by Cindy
Post by v***@oyama.ca
it's ok to brutalize people who agree with it?
What is your view?
Rule no. 1. Don't talk about Fight Club. ;-)
You are very young, aren't you?
OK, you haven't seen the movie, or if you did, you've forgotten it. It
was a joke. Hence the emoticon.
Post by Cindy
Post by v***@oyama.ca
Well-adjusted people do not seek beatings. There are undoubtedly people
with psychological problems who seek physical pain, but it's not
healthy. It doesn't help them with their problems, and it may well do
serious damage. And it hurts others. Tolerating beating between
consenting adults erodes society's revulsion against beating, and
creates more people who feel it is OK to beat others.
At least that's my view. :-)
That's absolutely noble! I bet you are a good person and good husband.
Now, I have to ask you some questions. How old are you? Where are you
from? Do you go to college? You don't sound like married, but are you
married? If you are married, how long have you been married? Have you
divorced before?
Rule No. 2: Don't give personal information over the 'net. No emoticon.
Post by Cindy
Do you remember when you were about 8 to 10 years old? When very close
female friends of those ages meet, they hug and hold hands and so on to
show affection to each other. On the other hand, boys of those ages,
they hit each other. Hitting each other means affection to them. Have
you ever had that experience? My psychology professor says it's normal
for young boys. Do you call them psychologically abnormal? Or it is
normal for them to hit each other because they are not well adjusted people?
Let's draw a distinction between young boys and the guy you previously
mentioned who I assume is an adult. Children do all sorts of cruel
things from time to time. They aren't our moral paragons. That is the
job of adults.
Post by Cindy
I don't know how young you are and what sort of a happy family you came
from, but I am not comfortable discussing the subject with you because
we have only a slight overlap of our frames of references. I have never
gone through a divorce yet, but do you know how stressful a divorce is?
Have you had an experience such as your employer just closed the local
office you had worked for 30 years because he was against to the pay
raise. Your retirement disappeared (Enron type incident). I know one
husband dumped his wife in order to marry another woman. Your wife is
having an affair with some other guys. You divorced your husband
successfully, but you and your child have a terrible financial crisis.
Your child is getting speeding tickets every month. Your child has
totaled three cars. Your child has been imprisoned for murder or drugs.
Have you had any of those experiences? And how would you like to listen
to those experiences everyday? What would you do when you hear those
experiences?
I would grow tired of hearing them every day. That's why I never became
a psychologist.

But what does that have to do with whether there is a universal set of
rights and wrongs?

Verno
Cindy
2003-11-24 13:33:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by v***@oyama.ca
Post by Cindy
Post by v***@oyama.ca
Rule no. 1. Don't talk about Fight Club. ;-)
You are very young, aren't you?
OK, you haven't seen the movie, or if you did, you've forgotten it. It
was a joke. Hence the emoticon.
I have. But the way you use the cliché gave me the perception.
Post by v***@oyama.ca
Post by Cindy
Now, I have to ask you some questions. How old are you? Where are you
from? Do you go to college? You don't sound like married, but are you
married? If you are married, how long have you been married? Have you
divorced before?
Rule No. 2: Don't give personal information over the 'net. No emoticon.
Then I will have to rely on my perception.
Post by v***@oyama.ca
Children do all sorts of cruel
things from time to time. They aren't our moral paragons. That is the
job of adults.
However, there is a Japanese saying: ko ha oyano kagami/oya ha ko no
kagami, which means "Child is a reflection of its parents." "If you see
the child, you'll know its parents."

By the way, you didn't get it either. Young kid's hitting each other is
called haptics, and it is a means to show affection to each other, not
cruel things. I suspect you didn't have it when you were small, did you?
Post by v***@oyama.ca
Post by Cindy
Have you had any of those experiences? And how would you like to listen
to those experiences everyday? What would you do when you hear those
experiences?
I would grow tired of hearing them every day. That's why I never became
a psychologist.
Then don't be a human being either.
Post by v***@oyama.ca
But what does that have to do with whether there is a universal set of
rights and wrongs?
d***@DELETEsocal.rr.com
2003-11-24 17:47:06 UTC
Permalink
ko ha oyano kagami/oya ha ko no kagami
Gesundheit.





--
I get tired of either sense or nonsense if I am
kept very continuously to either & like my mind
to undulate between the two as it likes best.

-- Bagehot (1858)
v***@oyama.ca
2003-11-24 21:06:50 UTC
Permalink
In article <5Nnwb.291987$***@attbi_s03>, ***@attb.com
says...
Post by Cindy
Post by v***@oyama.ca
Post by Cindy
Post by v***@oyama.ca
Rule no. 1. Don't talk about Fight Club. ;-)
You are very young, aren't you?
OK, you haven't seen the movie, or if you did, you've forgotten it. It
was a joke. Hence the emoticon.
I have. But the way you use the cliché gave me the perception.
I'm pleased--it shows I can fit in with "youngsters".
Post by Cindy
Post by v***@oyama.ca
Post by Cindy
Now, I have to ask you some questions. How old are you? Where are you
from? Do you go to college? You don't sound like married, but are you
married? If you are married, how long have you been married? Have you
divorced before?
Rule No. 2: Don't give personal information over the 'net. No emoticon.
Then I will have to rely on my perception.
Post by v***@oyama.ca
Children do all sorts of cruel
things from time to time. They aren't our moral paragons. That is the
job of adults.
However, there is a Japanese saying: ko ha oyano kagami/oya ha ko no
kagami, which means "Child is a reflection of its parents." "If you see
the child, you'll know its parents."
A good saying. It's like the English proverb "An apple never falls too
far from the tree", with the apple being the child and the tree, the
parent.
Post by Cindy
By the way, you didn't get it either. Young kid's hitting each other is
called haptics, and it is a means to show affection to each other, not
cruel things.
No doubt some of it is good-natured. But some of it is cruel, too.
Post by Cindy
I suspect you didn't have it when you were small, did you?
Of course. But growing up as a boy, I experienced the full range of
boys hitting boys, from friendly kibbitzing to testing for dominance to
bullying and aggression. Most of it isn't a display of friendship.
Post by Cindy
Post by v***@oyama.ca
Post by Cindy
Have you had any of those experiences? And how would you like to listen
to those experiences everyday? What would you do when you hear those
experiences?
I would grow tired of hearing them every day. That's why I never became
a psychologist.
Then don't be a human being either.
I'm not sure that's the solution. Anyway, I can't do anything about my
DNA. ;-)

Anyway, my friends know me as an empathetic listener who will also tell
them what I think.

But there's a difference between being an empathetic listener to family
and friends, and your original question. You asked how I would like to
listen to experiences like these everyday:

"your employer just closed the local office you had worked for 30 years
because he was against to the pay raise. Your retirement disappeared
(Enron type incident). I know one husband dumped his wife in order to
marry another woman. Your wife is having an affair with some other guys.
You divorced your husband successfully, but you and your child have a
terrible financial crisis. Your child is getting speeding tickets every
month. Your child has totaled three cars. Your child has been
imprisoned for murder or drugs."

I think the only people who are in a position where they hear about
those terrible experiences *everyday* is a psychologist or counsellor.
That's why I answered as I did.

So let's get back to the original question. Do you think there is a
universal moral code, or are you really a moral relativist who believes
anything another culture does is OK as long as it is accepted within
their culture?

Verno
Xiao Li
2003-11-22 02:21:07 UTC
Permalink
Judging by her name, I would say this is a Jap.

And seeing how Japs are the most racist people on the planet (rivaled
perhaps by fellow Gooks and chinks) her words really shouldn't be much
of a surprise to anyone.

Perhaps this Jap is trying to revive the old Nazi-Jap alliance through
bashing the Chosen People.
Post by Elena Nakashima
Are Jews good or bad? The fairest answer would be neither; they are
like anyone else, there are good ones and bad ones.
I agree that this is true.
However, ethnic and racial groups seem to possess certain
characteristics, advantages and disadvantages, and other qualities in
quantities uniquely different than among other groups.
For example, the Germanic and Japanese character seems to be driven
toward order and efficiency, cleanliness and precision. This can be
good when they are behaving and dangerous when organized for
aggression.
After all, how dangerous were a bunch of disorganized Italians when
compared to Germans?
It appears the general Jewish trait is cosmopolitanism, and to a
lesser degree, radicalism. Granted, there has been powerful
conservative Jewish impulses but these were confined among Jews and
Jewish issues. In other words, Orthodox Jews stick to their own kind,
their issues are their issues, and they neither care to nor want
interference or influence from or on the world outside.
So, the Jewish elements that do affect gentiles is Jewish
cosmopolitanism and radicalism. An orthodox Jew doesn't try to spread
Orthodox Judaism to other peoples but a radical Jews have tried to
spread communism. Orthodox Jews have little impact on the culture of
goyim but secularized Jews in the arts, media, and politics have left
an indelible mark of their vision and character. Another aspect of
Jewishness is their greater intellectual prowess that leads to rapid
achievements in such fields as academia, business, arts, and politics.
This influence has been both liberating and progressive as well as
destabilizing and alienating, especially for people who who came to
resent the newly arrived mass of immigrants'(say from Russia to
Germany or France)sudden and drastic impact on what the natives
consider their culture and destiny.
Of course this has been complicated by the fact that some Jews were
assimilationists and others became diehard radicals, some became
pro-government while others anti-government, and some became
capitalist tycoons while others became communist revolutionaries.
But, in the significant cases of Jewish capitalism and communism what
one senses is a loyalty that goes beyond national boundaries, with a
little or half-hearted respect for the traditions of the native
gentile populations. As many traditional values are stupid and
oppressive this Jewish influence can be welcomed as modern and
enlightening. But, can people live by ideology alone, whether it be
rooted in money or sense of justice?
I think we associate certain European countries with anti-semitism but
I think every nation and people have a potential for such prejudices,
especially if the nation happens to be homogenouos with a clear sense
of togetherness or a volkish sensibilty. America is ideal for Jews
because while many ethnic groups might distrust or even hate Jews, the
diverse gentile populations don't trust eachother enough to join
forces against the powerful Jewish elite. While the goyim might resent
and envy Jewish achievements and power in United States, it's highly
unlikely that Southern Baptists, Italian American Catholics, Blacks,
Hispanics, and Asians are likely to join forces in a united front
against the Jew. And, why should they if they believe in the American
ideal of meritocracy? If Jews have achieved riches and powers way
beyond their numbers thru hard work and superior intellect, isn't this
the American way. Of course, some don't agree and we have affirmative
action programs which limit, say, NY Jews from entering Ivy League
schools in greater numbers in favor of less intelligent gentiles from
Midwest smalltowns. Of course, some gentiles fear that because Jews
are more intelligent, Jews feel as though they have the right to
sneer, poke fun, trash, and desecrate the cultures of others. The Marx
Brothers movie Duck Soup is a perfect example of this unease gentiles
might feel, that Jews are nihilists who are above conventional
morality, just as Einstein's theory of relativitiy went beyond
conventional Newtonian understanding of the universe. When it's
simply a matter of scientific theory it doesn't matter much but things
of social impact are important in the minds of people. Some would
argue that Jews make fun of themselves as much as any other, and that
other peoples also have a long tradition of comedy and satire; after
all Jonathan Swift wasn't Jewish. But, Jewish humor seems wilder and
more aggressive because it's seen as criticism from an outsider.
Anyway, while I don't think Jews aren't any better or worse than
others, I think their impact on cultures the world over is
significantly DIFFERENT in quality and nuance than the influences of
other cultures. Also, because of the high caliber of Jewish
intellectuality, I think their influences, good and bad, become far
more consequential than that of others. For example, consider the
influence of former Stalinist historian Eric Hobsbawm. If he was just
another lame gentile historian he would have been shuffled aside as
academic hack. But, because of his brilliance, his pro-communist evil
has infiltrated into the unsuspecting minds of many.
I think one of the reasons why there was some clash between Japanese
and Jews in the early 90s was due to their different cultural
approaches and set of values. Japanese by and large are
traditionalist, volkish, and hierarchical whereas Jewish influence and
power in the world are cosmopolitan, supra-national,
anti-traditionalist, and liberal(except in the case of Israel which
can't afford tolerance in the present state of being surrounded by
Arab aggressors). Of course, one can argue that Japan is reasonably a
liberal and modern nation, and that its economy is world-based.
However, if we go beyond business(which in Japan is clannishly
organized and mercantilist anyway) and political expediency(Japanese
dependence on America, for example), Japanese still retain much of
their cultural impulses of the past. Western observers say that
Japanese still have a village mentality, dwell on their uniqueness,
their sense of honor, and define themselves in contrast to other
peoples. They are like Orthodox Jews but then again, Orthodox Jews are
not what defines Jewish power and influence in the world.
In contrast to the Japanese, secular Jews represent transcending
national boundaries, dismantling traditional modes of behavior and
allegiances. To the Japanese, Jews represent a very small percentage
of Americans with undue influence on American politics, culture, and
business. To even conceive of letting themselves be at the mercy of a
minority group upsets, even disgusts, the Japanese. Japanese think of
America as the great Yankee power, the empire of Douglas MacArthur and
John Wayne, now brought low by a cabal of disloyal internationalist
Jews who manipulate the American system for their narrow interests;
they see a once mighty gentile Christian nation led around on a leash
by its clever Jewish master who uses its power to open its national
borders and promote miscegenation to wipe out the racial identity and
pride that once distinguished the nation of Commodore Perry and
Charles Lindbergh. At its height, Japanese even wrote idiotic
best-sellers like IF YOU UNDERSTAND THE JEWS YOU UNDERSTAND THE WORLD,
which was so paranoid and looney that it even claimed Roosevelt was
Jewish. But it was a best-seller and was advertised in Japan's most
respected newspapers, and academics who knew better didn't protest
such slanderous spread of lies.
But, Jews have also seen Japan as a threat in the 80s. They saw the
rise of a homogenous, traditionalist, and fiercely nationalistic
society growing into a major power and what Japan represented was the
power of racial and national unity, of the volkish values, of
discipline and hierarchy, of conservative values; in other words, what
a nation can achieve by sticking together and controlling their own
destiny. Jews fear the Japanese as a bunch of feudalistic and
clannish tribe of modern day samurai who smile at and shakes hands
with the world but have no real value other than group loyality. They
see Japan as a male-dominated society where the population is kept
docile as children thru strick social ordering and thru mindless
soma-like influence of manga, videogames, and pachinko parlors which
keep the minds of people off important issues; in other words, stupid
child-like Japanese women would rather play pachinko all day or dye
their hair pink than march in the streets and demand real justice and
equality. Was Japanbashing in the media merely the manifestation of
American gentile prejudice or was there a Jewish element in the sheer
virulence it reached at its height in late 80s and early 90s?
Anyway, I think all such fears are nonsensical and let's all just get
along together and not nitpick about our differences and focus instead
on our common humanity. God Bless.
Aol
2003-11-22 03:30:17 UTC
Permalink
Judging from your name I'd say you're a chink.
And no, Japs aren't the most racist people on earth because
unlike some people they haven't institutionalized their racism into laws.
Perhaps you should go back to sucking on your steamed cat and
be quiet.
Post by Xiao Li
Judging by her name, I would say this is a Jap.
And seeing how Japs are the most racist people on the planet (rivaled
perhaps by fellow Gooks and chinks) her words really shouldn't be much
of a surprise to anyone.
Perhaps this Jap is trying to revive the old Nazi-Jap alliance through
bashing the Chosen People.
Post by Elena Nakashima
Are Jews good or bad? The fairest answer would be neither; they are
like anyone else, there are good ones and bad ones.
I agree that this is true.
However, ethnic and racial groups seem to possess certain
characteristics, advantages and disadvantages, and other qualities in
quantities uniquely different than among other groups.
For example, the Germanic and Japanese character seems to be driven
toward order and efficiency, cleanliness and precision. This can be
good when they are behaving and dangerous when organized for
aggression.
After all, how dangerous were a bunch of disorganized Italians when
compared to Germans?
It appears the general Jewish trait is cosmopolitanism, and to a
lesser degree, radicalism. Granted, there has been powerful
conservative Jewish impulses but these were confined among Jews and
Jewish issues. In other words, Orthodox Jews stick to their own kind,
their issues are their issues, and they neither care to nor want
interference or influence from or on the world outside.
So, the Jewish elements that do affect gentiles is Jewish
cosmopolitanism and radicalism. An orthodox Jew doesn't try to spread
Orthodox Judaism to other peoples but a radical Jews have tried to
spread communism. Orthodox Jews have little impact on the culture of
goyim but secularized Jews in the arts, media, and politics have left
an indelible mark of their vision and character. Another aspect of
Jewishness is their greater intellectual prowess that leads to rapid
achievements in such fields as academia, business, arts, and politics.
This influence has been both liberating and progressive as well as
destabilizing and alienating, especially for people who who came to
resent the newly arrived mass of immigrants'(say from Russia to
Germany or France)sudden and drastic impact on what the natives
consider their culture and destiny.
Of course this has been complicated by the fact that some Jews were
assimilationists and others became diehard radicals, some became
pro-government while others anti-government, and some became
capitalist tycoons while others became communist revolutionaries.
But, in the significant cases of Jewish capitalism and communism what
one senses is a loyalty that goes beyond national boundaries, with a
little or half-hearted respect for the traditions of the native
gentile populations. As many traditional values are stupid and
oppressive this Jewish influence can be welcomed as modern and
enlightening. But, can people live by ideology alone, whether it be
rooted in money or sense of justice?
I think we associate certain European countries with anti-semitism but
I think every nation and people have a potential for such prejudices,
especially if the nation happens to be homogenouos with a clear sense
of togetherness or a volkish sensibilty. America is ideal for Jews
because while many ethnic groups might distrust or even hate Jews, the
diverse gentile populations don't trust eachother enough to join
forces against the powerful Jewish elite. While the goyim might resent
and envy Jewish achievements and power in United States, it's highly
unlikely that Southern Baptists, Italian American Catholics, Blacks,
Hispanics, and Asians are likely to join forces in a united front
against the Jew. And, why should they if they believe in the American
ideal of meritocracy? If Jews have achieved riches and powers way
beyond their numbers thru hard work and superior intellect, isn't this
the American way. Of course, some don't agree and we have affirmative
action programs which limit, say, NY Jews from entering Ivy League
schools in greater numbers in favor of less intelligent gentiles from
Midwest smalltowns. Of course, some gentiles fear that because Jews
are more intelligent, Jews feel as though they have the right to
sneer, poke fun, trash, and desecrate the cultures of others. The Marx
Brothers movie Duck Soup is a perfect example of this unease gentiles
might feel, that Jews are nihilists who are above conventional
morality, just as Einstein's theory of relativitiy went beyond
conventional Newtonian understanding of the universe. When it's
simply a matter of scientific theory it doesn't matter much but things
of social impact are important in the minds of people. Some would
argue that Jews make fun of themselves as much as any other, and that
other peoples also have a long tradition of comedy and satire; after
all Jonathan Swift wasn't Jewish. But, Jewish humor seems wilder and
more aggressive because it's seen as criticism from an outsider.
Anyway, while I don't think Jews aren't any better or worse than
others, I think their impact on cultures the world over is
significantly DIFFERENT in quality and nuance than the influences of
other cultures. Also, because of the high caliber of Jewish
intellectuality, I think their influences, good and bad, become far
more consequential than that of others. For example, consider the
influence of former Stalinist historian Eric Hobsbawm. If he was just
another lame gentile historian he would have been shuffled aside as
academic hack. But, because of his brilliance, his pro-communist evil
has infiltrated into the unsuspecting minds of many.
I think one of the reasons why there was some clash between Japanese
and Jews in the early 90s was due to their different cultural
approaches and set of values. Japanese by and large are
traditionalist, volkish, and hierarchical whereas Jewish influence and
power in the world are cosmopolitan, supra-national,
anti-traditionalist, and liberal(except in the case of Israel which
can't afford tolerance in the present state of being surrounded by
Arab aggressors). Of course, one can argue that Japan is reasonably a
liberal and modern nation, and that its economy is world-based.
However, if we go beyond business(which in Japan is clannishly
organized and mercantilist anyway) and political expediency(Japanese
dependence on America, for example), Japanese still retain much of
their cultural impulses of the past. Western observers say that
Japanese still have a village mentality, dwell on their uniqueness,
their sense of honor, and define themselves in contrast to other
peoples. They are like Orthodox Jews but then again, Orthodox Jews are
not what defines Jewish power and influence in the world.
In contrast to the Japanese, secular Jews represent transcending
national boundaries, dismantling traditional modes of behavior and
allegiances. To the Japanese, Jews represent a very small percentage
of Americans with undue influence on American politics, culture, and
business. To even conceive of letting themselves be at the mercy of a
minority group upsets, even disgusts, the Japanese. Japanese think of
America as the great Yankee power, the empire of Douglas MacArthur and
John Wayne, now brought low by a cabal of disloyal internationalist
Jews who manipulate the American system for their narrow interests;
they see a once mighty gentile Christian nation led around on a leash
by its clever Jewish master who uses its power to open its national
borders and promote miscegenation to wipe out the racial identity and
pride that once distinguished the nation of Commodore Perry and
Charles Lindbergh. At its height, Japanese even wrote idiotic
best-sellers like IF YOU UNDERSTAND THE JEWS YOU UNDERSTAND THE WORLD,
which was so paranoid and looney that it even claimed Roosevelt was
Jewish. But it was a best-seller and was advertised in Japan's most
respected newspapers, and academics who knew better didn't protest
such slanderous spread of lies.
But, Jews have also seen Japan as a threat in the 80s. They saw the
rise of a homogenous, traditionalist, and fiercely nationalistic
society growing into a major power and what Japan represented was the
power of racial and national unity, of the volkish values, of
discipline and hierarchy, of conservative values; in other words, what
a nation can achieve by sticking together and controlling their own
destiny. Jews fear the Japanese as a bunch of feudalistic and
clannish tribe of modern day samurai who smile at and shakes hands
with the world but have no real value other than group loyality. They
see Japan as a male-dominated society where the population is kept
docile as children thru strick social ordering and thru mindless
soma-like influence of manga, videogames, and pachinko parlors which
keep the minds of people off important issues; in other words, stupid
child-like Japanese women would rather play pachinko all day or dye
their hair pink than march in the streets and demand real justice and
equality. Was Japanbashing in the media merely the manifestation of
American gentile prejudice or was there a Jewish element in the sheer
virulence it reached at its height in late 80s and early 90s?
Anyway, I think all such fears are nonsensical and let's all just get
along together and not nitpick about our differences and focus instead
on our common humanity. God Bless.
Joseph Hertzlinger
2003-11-23 09:09:21 UTC
Permalink
On 20 Nov 2003 13:12:41 -0800, Elena Nakashima
Post by Elena Nakashima
I think we associate certain European countries with anti-semitism
but I think every nation and people have a potential for such
prejudices, especially if the nation happens to be homogenouos with
a clear sense of togetherness or a volkish sensibilty. America is
ideal for Jews because while many ethnic groups might distrust or
even hate Jews, the diverse gentile populations don't trust each
other enough to join forces against the powerful Jewish elite.
While the goyim might resent and envy Jewish achievements and power
in United States, it's highly unlikely that Southern Baptists,
Italian American Catholics, Blacks, Hispanics, and Asians are likely
to join forces in a united front against the Jew.
It's Ethniklashistan!

See http://www.theonion.com/onion3723/west_bank.html
--
http://hertzlinger.blogspot.com
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